New boiler blasted concrete underneath it. Any ideas why?

Homeowner3

Hello!

I had a brand-spanking new Weil McLain EG-65 put in--job finished today. Turned on nicely. Everything seemed fine. About 40 minutes after being fired up (just after I went upstairs to check on my kids) there was a loud bang. I came down to find the boiler had cut off, and all the burners were sitting in a heap, in rubble, on the concrete basement floor.

Called the installer and the fire department.

Something caused the boiler to go "bang" and crack off the top layer of concrete directly underneath the burners--the entire area (about 1/8 of an inch deep).

Any thoughts?

I have a few ideas, but would like to hear yours first...

Thanks!

hvacfreak2

The concrete got too hot for some reason , recommended clearance issue maybe ? Flaw in the concrete ?

Homeowner3

My old boiler had been right there--so I don't think it is a flaw in the concrete...

Yes--the concrete must have gotten too hot. I am trying to figure out why, though! I hadn't thought about clearance. Thank you! I will take a quick look at the manual. Thanks!

KC_Jones

Did they do any concrete work as part of the install?

Homeowner3

Sorry--I should have clarified that point.

No--they did not do any work to or with the concrete. It was the same floor and spot as our old boiler.

unclejohn

There should not be a clearance issue. If the floor was cracked and water got underneath during the install and boiled to steam maybe.

KC_Jones

Very odd, standard concrete will do that, but I can't imagine those burners getting the concrete hot enough to do it. I had it happen when I stupidly put my chimney charcoal starter on my concrete patio, sounds like a bomb going off. Can you post pictures of what it looks like now?

Homeowner3

Picture of the boiler and set up or the damage under the boiler?

Homeowner3

My husband and I were thinking along the same lines--that it must be that the concrete got wet...

BUT--it also seems that the damper failed. Any possibility THAT could have been a contributing factor?

KC_Jones

It failed closed? Pictures of the damage, you have me really curious. Also someone might have a better idea with pics of exactly what it looks like.

Gordy

Sounds stupid burner tubes upside down? Even one maybe?

KC_Jones

Gordy said:

Sounds stupid burner tunes upside down? Even one maybe?

Only problem would be proving that....if it got blown up as bad as it sounds it took out any evidence of such an error.

Homeowner3

I am just worried that there MAY have been damage to this brand-new boiler, which I can't see.

A big bang and a shattered floor 40 min is scary to me--and I can't afford to replace this thing again. I really can't.

Gordy

So it blew the burner tubes out of place?

KC_Jones

Homeowner3 said:

I came down to find the boiler had cut off, and all the burners were sitting in a heap, in rubble, on the concrete basement floor.

Gordy

It takes a direct flame on concrete to get it to pop like that. The higher the moisture in the concrete the more violent it will pop. Basically it's making steam in microscopic air pockets in the concrete.

Homeowner3

Just to clarify--yes--all the burner tubes had fallen on the floor. The concrete several inches in had all cracked--the entire surface had cracked, so there was broken concrete everywhere. There is an area about the size of a dinner plate that all of the concrete cracked and blew up into the air and out toward the perimeter of the boiler. It is like a large, shallow hole under the boiler.

KC_Jones

Sounds pretty typical for a concrete explosion, the issue here is I can't imagine a burner tube pointed up and flame at least 3-4 inches above the floor could possibly get the concrete hot enough to do this?!

Homeowner3

I'm not feeling too confident about the boiler not being damaged... And we just don't know what could have made it get so hot.

We just looked at the manual. It does not specify anything about clearance, unless you are in a garage (then it should be 18 inches).

Gordy

Spalled the concrete. I'm going with one or multiple burners upside down. But like @KC_Jones said hard to prove, and who could be that dumb.......could not have been all of them or it would not light off. All though never tried it.......

Homeowner3

Hmmm. I don't think the burner tubes are anywhere close to 3-4 inches off the floor. They are much lower to the ground. perhaps 1-2 inches off? Not sure. I will go look.

KC_Jones

Gordy said:

Spalled the concrete. I'm going with one or multiple burners upside down. But like @KC_Jones said hard to prove, and who could be that dumb.......

Have you seen some of the pictures posted on this site?

Gordy

Your right KC , but that takes the cake if that actually happened.

Homeowner3

Is it possible one of the installers did not have a burner tube pointed the right way?

KC_Jones

Homeowner3 said:

Hmmm. I don't think the burner tubes are anywhere close to 3-4 inches off the floor. They are much lower to the ground. perhaps 1-2 inches off? Not sure. I will go look.

I have an EG-40 and the burner tray is essentially the same as yours only less tubes. The top of the tubes is 5" off the floor (just measured mine) and that's where the flame comes out.

Gordy

Not knowing the installer anything is possible.......

KC_Jones

Or did they not have the rear part of the burner tube in the slot and it was sitting on the floor? 5" off the floor I don't care if there was a puddle under there, still seems impossible it would just do this without some kind of "help".

Homeowner3

Ok. Sorry--I guess my memory was confused because of the visual of them all sitting on the floor.

They had been sitting about 4-5 inches off the floor, too.

So--1) we just don't know why the concrete got so hot and 2) do I need to be concerned that this BRAND NEW, super expensive purchase, just got damaged?

Do I need to ask for it to be pulled out and replaced now, 'cause I can't afford to replace another boiler.

Gordy

Some pics,would help. Unless the mess is cleaned up. I hope you did not so the installer can see what happened.

Gordy

KC take blow torch to concrete somewhere where you don't mind a little spall, and wear safety glasses. You'll see how much heat it takes. From a direct flame.

Gordy

I just checked my Weil cgm and you can put them in upside down. I think the burner tubes are,identical. I just don't know what kind of flame would happen in that orientation.

Gordy

I,would think the culprit tube would have a different appearance maybe. Flame trying to rise up the sides of the tube(s).

KC_Jones

Gordy said:

KC take blow torch to concrete somewhere where you don't mind a little spall, and wear safety glasses. You'll see how much heat it takes. From a direct flame.

Yeah I've seen it happen from my charcoal chimney starter. It takes a lot of heat.

Gordy said:

I just checked my Weil cgm and you can put them in upside down. I think the burner tubes are,identical. I just don't know what kind of flame would happen in that orientation.

I'd offer to flip one of mine to see, but I don't think my brain would allow my hand to make the maneuver...just not smart. And you are correct they will fit either way, I tried it and remember thinking that's odd. I design for a living and that is one thing I always look at, can this be installed wrong? If the answer is yes, I change things so it can't. Murphy lives everywhere.

Homeowner3

The installer came back and cleaned most of it up--and put the burners back. He is coming back in the morning.

I did not touch anything until both he and the fire department had seen it. Actually, I did not touch anything. Period. (Except to shut off the gas after I heard the bang and saw the mess.)

So--I can't really show you what it looked like. I will try to take some pics and post them by tomorrow. I am pretty exhausted--and need some sleep. And my husband wants me to post a question about cleaning a new boiler...

I'm just not sure if I need to tell them to take this boiler out, in case it was damaged...

Thanks, all. I appreciate the feedback. I am super bummed.

Homeowner3

Hmmm. I amy post a quick question about burner tubes ever being installed upside down... Thanks!

KC_Jones

If you are concerned about damage, my suggestion would be to talk to the installer about it AND call Weil Mclain and explain to them what happened. To clarify YOU call Weil Mclain not the installer just to find out their take on the situation. If something goes very wrong and for some reason you needed warranty work (in a few years) I would want some assurances now one way or the other from the people issuing the warranty. I don't think any of us could really intelligently say if there is a problem since we can't really see it.

Gordy

Well put it this way if everything was done correctly then the boiler is under warranty. If Weil can determine it was installer error, and they can then your installer eats it.

Gordy

KC_Jones said:

Gordy said:

KC take blow torch to concrete somewhere where you don't mind a little spall, and wear safety glasses. You'll see how much heat it takes. From a direct flame.

Yeah I've seen it happen from my charcoal chimney starter. It takes a lot of heat.

Gordy said:

I just checked my Weil cgm and you can put them in upside down. I think the burner tubes are,identical. I just don't know what kind of flame would happen in that orientation.

I'd offer to flip one of mine to see, but I don't think my brain would allow my hand to make the maneuver...just not smart. And you are correct they will fit either way, I tried it and remember thinking that's odd. I design for a living and that is one thing I always look at, can this be installed wrong? If the answer is yes, I change things so it can't. Murphy lives everywhere.

If true this would be a first that I know of. I don't even know why it popped into my head.

Homeowner3

Yes--I fear this is going to be bad either for my installer (if I insist he has to replace it or I won't pay him) or me (if I don't, and it ends up having problems bc I have no faith in ANY reassurances)... Ugh. I have spent months and months trying to get this install done right. Double Ugh.

Thanks for your input.

Gordy

It's good you have not paid in full yet. Let us know what happens please!

nicholas bonham-carter

Have a look at the burner tubes to see if there are any which have a different appearance from the others. I would think that any tubes which have been operating upside down would be warped, or discolored.
I would be worried now that the concrete pad might be compromised enough to warrant a replacement, however this might have to wait until spring, when you don't need heat.
Don't forget to post some pictures of the boiler piping, in case something else was wrong!--NBC