New Steam Boiler - now system not quite right

chrisnbets

In late September we replaced our 40 year old steam boiler with with a Weil McLain EG/PEG-65. When the temps started falling and the boiler kicked on we noticed a lot of banging, steam leaking from 3 radiator valves, and the sound of water rushing in pipes and in a few radiators on one side of the house (2700 sq ft on 3 levels; basement/garage, main floor, 2nd floor, and finished attic). We called the company that installed and they said the main vent wasn't working (2 pipe system, 1 main vent, no vents on the radiators), it was spewing water. So we replaced the main vent with a Hoffman and the radiator valves that were leaking. After the new main vent installation, again water was spewing from the new vent. The installers said they needed to repipe going from using 2 2-inch risers to 1 3-inch riser. When I questioned this (I've read that if you have spots for 2 risers, use them the slow down velocity and get drier steam) they said they called Weil McLain who said to do it this way. After reading this forum and other websites I also realized the header wasn't correctly installed either so that was replaced as well.

Now we have one 3 inch riser going into a 3 inch header, which then goes into 2 - 2 inch steam pipes, and on one side the 2 inch turns into 2.5. The other side may as well but is covered in taped asbestos so I can't tell. Now the issue we're having is one radiator on the main floor, at the end of a line, is not heating up very fast. If I turn the boiler up and leave it on for about an hour, the radiator will eventually heat up but not enough to for the trap to get hot... And it gets up to 80 degrees in the house. We're also hearing the sound of sputtering water inside that radiator. There are 2 other radiators on the 2nd floor that are on the same steam line (the line splits off before getting to the radiator that is not heating up) which are heating up faster but I can also hear water sputtering in one of them. The installer came out again but couldn't find any issues. It might be worth mentioning that all the other radiators are heating, even in the attic, but they seem to be heating differently than before. While I didn't pay much attention before, I feel like the radiators heated more evenly before. Now it seems like the tops get super hot (much hotter than previously) and then slowly heats to the bottom. The water in our sight glass also fluctuates probably 2 inches when the boiler is in use and is dirty... Im assuming it may need to be skimmed? We don't know much about steam boilers and have done a bit of Internet research but can't figure out what the issue or issues are. I have a feeling the boiler is still piped incorrectly. Any help would be very appreciated! I'd like to have some ideas of the issues before I call the installers out again. I've attached some pictures. Thanks!

BobC

It would have been nice if they used both outlets and a larger header but that is not required by the manufacturer.

Right now that boiler has to be skimmed to get rid of all the oils in the water. It may take several long skimming sessions to get all the oils out, the idea is to get the boiler hot (but not steaming) and then slowly raise the water level to let water trickle out of the skim port - it should take at least an hour to draw off 5 gallons. I don't see any evidence of a skimming port, tell them to install one and watch how they skim it so you can do it yourself because they will probably do a half **** job at best.

Bob

Abracadabra

Unless I'm blind, I don't see a skim port installed. Have them come back and install one and skim the boiler properly.

JUGHNE

Looking at the front of the boiler, the right steam main at the ceiling. Did they lower that horizontal pipe?? The half round sheetrock cut in the soffit was there, is that where the pipe used to be? Did they reduce the pipe from 2 1/2 to 2" with that bushing?

Abracadabra

JUGHNE said:

Looking at the front of the boiler, the right steam main at the ceiling. Did they lower that horizontal pipe?? The half round sheetrock cut in the soffit was there, is that where the pipe used to be? Did they reduce the pipe from 2 1/2 to 2" with that bushing?

I think you're right @JUGHNE Guess they left the 2.5" threader at the shop that day That's a shame... should have left it full size to the header.

JUGHNE

Looks like the 2 1/2" 90 was reset to lower the new 2" fittings.
The high point of that steam main was maybe the old 2 1/2 90 up inside the soffit near the back wall? There might be a 2" union we don't see hiding behind the flue pipe.

Jamie Hall

I can't quite make out the markings on the pressuretrol -- make sure that it's set to 1.5 psi cutout and a 1 psi differential.

Gurgling and hammering and all that is a sign of water where it shouldn't be. It might be just that the boiler needs skimming. However, I would check all your pipe pitches.

I would also check -- and double check -- that anything that was a wet return is still a wet return. Your new boiler is almost certainly a good bit shorter than the old one, and it is possible that somewhere out in the far reaches of the system there is a pipe or pipes which should be wet, but aren't now. That can cause all kinds of mischief.

JUGHNE

The left steam main has a short 2" horizontal section of pipe near the back wall that looks not sloped to drain back to the header, if the soffit is near level then that 10-12" pipe will trap water giving you water hammer.

How about more pictures that show the main vent and the piping at the end of the steam mains where it goes into the lower wet return (painted white pipe).
Is that a correct location for the BFP on the CW line? (no manual fill valve shown)

At least the company came back and changed something
Look at how much face time the company sticker gets on the internet.

Dave0176

Once again we have installers who just installed a boiler and didn't take anytime to look over the whole system. They should've replaced the main vent from the beginning, they never installed the skim port.
I wish people wouldn't call Weil McLain to get info, they only repeat what's in the install manual, which happens to be the BARE MINIMUM. Weil McLain can care less that you have to listen to all the noises that your system is going to make because the steam velocities are through the roof, as long as their boiler is in line price wise with all the other manufacturers.

Fred

That main on the right is definitely pitched the wrong direction and it does look like it was pulled down from the soffet a lot. Double check that and skim, skim, skim. (however skimming won't fix a pitch problem)

chrisnbets

Thanks everyone for your responses! To answer a few of the questions...
-We haven't had any banging since the rep pie was done.
- I had no idea about the skim port and no there isn't one. I'll follow up with the installer. They said they skimmed the system when they originally installed it but I don't know how.
- The horizontal 2 inch mains near the soffit were not touched, although the installers said the one to the right was sagging so they fixed it. Now with a level it looks like it's perfectly level, should it be? Or should it pitch back toward the boiler? The right side is the line where we have the radiator issue. The left side pitches back toward the boiler. We never had pipe problems with the old boiler.
- The pressure was originally set too high and I think that is why we has leaking valves and the main vent stopped working. The installer turned the pressure down and didn't charge for the main vent replacement or valves.
- One installer we got an estimate from said we should get put in a new return line in a few inches above the floor, the installer we used said the return looked to be in great shape and would be well below the waterline of the new boiler so they just flushed it. And it is below the waterline.

Could the need to skim the boiler cause a radiator not the heat and cause the sputtering water noises in the radiator?

I've attached some additional pictures of the return line where it is hooked up, the main vent, and the pressure setting.

BobC

I am a little concerned about the right hand return tying into the other return as high as it does, it would be better if it were lower Make sure the top of that tie in is well below the waterline of the boiler.

Bob

Fred

I'm sure you need more main venting than that single Hoffman #75. Measure your mains (length and diameter) from the boiler to that vent. The rule of thumb is the equalivent of one Gorton #2 for every 20 feet of 2" Main. That gorton is equal to about 50% of the venting capacity of a Gorton #2.
Also, I take it this is a counter flow system if the mains are pitched back towards the boiler. Where are your returns in relationship to those mains above the boiler?
One other comment, your Pressuretrol cut-in is set correctly (the scale on the front of the Pressuretrol, but the real need is to make sure the Cut-out is properly set. Inside the Pressuretrol there is a white wheel that should be set at "1" so that the system pressure doesn't get above 1.5 PSI. Counter flow systems are especially sensitive to high pressure as the water is running in the opposite direction as the steam. High pressure will prevent the water return until the boiler shuts down.

JUGHNE

Fred, OP has stated he has 2 pipe rads w/o vents and traps on rads. Dry returns going into wet returns. Am I missing something by thinking this is a parallel flow that should have the high point of steam mains at the boiler?

Fred

JUGHNE said:

Fred, OP has stated he has 2 pipe rads w/o vents and traps on rads. Dry returns going into wet returns. Am I missing something by thinking this is a parallel flow that should have the high point of steam mains at the boiler?

I initially thought it was a parallel flow also but his last post says the left main is pitched towards the boiler and they never has a problem with the old boiler. He also states the right side main is level. If the left side runs back towards the boiler (and has always run that way) it has to be counterflow doesn't it? I suppose it could have always been wrong too but that should have created some issues with the old boiler. I guess I'm confused???

Jamie Hall

JUGHNE said:

Fred, OP has stated he has 2 pipe rads w/o vents and traps on rads. Dry returns going into wet returns. Am I missing something by thinking this is a parallel flow that should have the high point of steam mains at the boiler?

I would think you are right here, although I have to admit that I would use the terms "parallel flow" and "counterflow" only really in regard to one pipe systems. Two pipe systems -- once they have warmed up -- have, or should have, very little condensate in the steam mains (unless they aren't insulated -- but that's another story). During warm up, though, they may have a good bit of condensate which, if not coped with, can hammer quite merrily! Most two pipe systems do seem to have the mains sloped away from the boiler, to a handy drip to a wet return at the far end, seems to me -- although provided there is a water seal or trap out there at the far end, I suppose they could go back into the dry returns...

KC_Jones

To the OP. If any of your mains are dead level that is wrong. If either of your mains are pitched towards the boiler that is also wrong. It sounds like you do not have a good steam contractor that doesn't really get steam. This is just my opinion, but I don't think they should have bushed down that one main that should have been brought down full size. Bushings on their side like that (no matter what) just aren't a good idea in my opinion. If they did indeed pitch that main back or make it level that bushing is going to hold water which is bad. It is also my opinion that on a boiler that size they should have used both tappings full 3" into a 4" header. It will run much better like this and most if not all the self respecting steam men around here would have done it like that. Also they piped the VXT autofeeder incorrectly. That should have a manual bypass which is shown right in the manual that comes with the feeder which they obviously didn't open. Without the manual feed skimming is impossible. And as was said you NEED that skimming port installed. Also I will reiterate that main venting isn't even remotely close to enough. You need to measure the length and pipe size of all the mains and that will dictate how much venting you need. Also send your contractor to this site if they would like to educate themselves on steam. The owner of this site literally wrote the book. Another suggestion would be to get a good low pressure gauge so you can see what pressure you are actually running at, on 2 pipe you want it really low in ounces not pounds. You won't be able to get good low pressure until that main venting is sorted out. You may even want to think about stepping up to a vaporstat, but I would wait on that until you see what the venting and gauge show.

JUGHNE

On another thread there was a situation where the steam main started out as counterflow, which I questioned. Then, I believe it was J-star or Steamhead said they don't worry about that as long as it slopped back to parallel before the first take-off. ( that was a 1 pipe I think).

But in this case we have a concentric increasing bushing on the right main and it looks like a back slope on the left main; both which could pocket water. Or add to condensate flowing back to boiler riser when it could be flowing away from header helping to dry the steam.

Chrisnbets: you have 2 steam mains and should have 2 dry return pipes. The picture with the vent, are those pipes dry returns, one each from the returns (draining the trap side of rads)? And if so then they "share" one air vent. If that tee under the vent is below the wet return water line then only one return has venting. The steam mains coming from the boiler should have a "pipe drip" at the end of each main. So you should have 4 pipes draining down into the wet return somewhere in the system. This is assuming that the steam mains slope down away from the boiler in order to drain condensate to the far end of the main where it should be returned to the boiler via the wet return.

Abracadabra

chrisnbets said:

- I had no idea about the skim port and no there isn't one. I'll follow up with the installer. They said they skimmed the system when they originally installed it but I don't know how.

I doubt they skimmed it. jmho.

chrisnbets

Hello JUGHNE,
I just followed the pipes around my basement and garage. It looks like the 2 mains meet In the area around the main vent and then are tied into the dry return pipe... It's tied in right above the wet return (wet return is the tee under the vent). Both of the dry returns meet together and become the pipe with the main vent attached.

JUGHNE

Could you get a picture that included all of that junction, from floor to ceiling. Have to back up some.

And the tee under the vent where the pipe on the right ties in to that drop.....is it above or below the 90 going into the Hartford loop from the wet return at the boiler. Measuring down from the ceiling joists if they are the same sizes and also up from basement floor would probably give you an average elevation.

chrisnbets

JUGHNE said:

Could you get a picture that included all of that junction, from floor to ceiling. Have to back up some.

And the tee under the vent where the pipe on the right ties in to that drop.....is it above or below the 90 going into the Hartford loop from the wet return at the boiler. Measuring down from the ceiling joists if they are the same sizes and also up from basement floor would probably give you an average elevation.

We tried to measure down from the floor joist since the basement floor (boiler location) and the garage floor (main vent location) are not the same. The garage has tile on the ceiling so we are guessing at the floor joist height. We think the rt tie in on the main vent pipe is about the same height as the top of the Hartford loop. I've attached a picture of the area from floor to ceiling, it's a very small room so this is the best I could get. You can't see the rt tie in in this pic but it's right above the wet line. Thanks so much for all your help!

JUGHNE

So your 2 steam mains (the larger pipes) tie together up high near the ceiling and drop down (drips) into the wet return on the upper tee.
And your 2 condensate returns tie together at the same height and then drop down into the wet return, then the actual wet return horizontal pipe then goes thru that wall to the boiler. Am I following this correctly?

So if the water level in the new boiler is now lower than the old level, the tee with the steam drip may not have enough water seal to keep the steam out of dry return. Do you see what I mean? You need a good water seal to keep the steam from passing into the dry return and raising various sorts of hell on the piping and wrecking traps that should not see steam on their back side; keeping them closed and not letting a rad heat because the air is stuck inside it, and not letting condensate drain? (Just like a sink drain P-trap containing a water seal that keeps the sewer gases from coming to where they should not be).

If this is the case, and it were me, I would cut the short nipple between the coupling and 90 ell, remove that 90. Cap the nipple left in the tee (pointing towards the wall.) remove the drip/cleanout pipe and extend the steam drip down to the floor and back up to where the cleanout pipe was removed. This would give a deeper trap for the steam drip. Provide a clean out full port ball valve in the horizontal line under the old piping (Use a tee rather than a 90 to go up to old wet return tee)

This will be the new low point for the wet return and you are bound to accumulate sludge there, and it must be checked annually or you may experience the same problems or have slow return of steam drip condensate. If that existing drip pipe has not been opened lately you will see what we are talking about.

It is quite common for each of these 4 pipes to drop down separately into the wet return which could be laying right on the floor. That way each pipe lives in its own pressure world isolated from one another by the water seal of the wet return. Each dry return would require it's own venting before its own change to wet pipe. I also have added venting to the steam main drips to speed up steam delivery. I would suggest more air vents, add at least 2 Gorton #2's on an antler assembly in addition to your Hoffman.

Hopefully the early morning Pros will chime in tomorrow AM.
Does anyone think the entire wet return pipe should be lowered?

Jamie Hall

"Does anyone think the entire wet return pipe should be lowered? "

no... that's overkill. @JUGHNE 's solution might work.

I wonder if there are any other areas where that is a problem? Look every where in your system!

Moral of the story: match the new water line to the old one when installing a new boiler (how any times have I said that?)

chrisnbets

JUGHNE said:

So your 2 steam mains (the larger pipes) tie together up high near the ceiling and drop down (drips) into the wet return on the upper tee.
And your 2 condensate returns tie together at the same height and then drop down into the wet return, then the actual wet return horizontal pipe then goes thru that wall to the boiler. Am I following this correctly?

So if the water level in the new boiler is now lower than the old level, the tee with the steam drip may not have enough water seal to keep the steam out of dry return. Do you see what I mean? You need a good water seal to keep the steam from passing into the dry return and raising various sorts of hell on the piping and wrecking traps that should not see steam on their back side; keeping them closed and not letting a rad heat because the air is stuck inside it, and not letting condensate drain? (Just like a sink drain P-trap containing a water seal that keeps the sewer gases from coming to where they should not be).

If this is the case, and it were me, I would cut the short nipple between the coupling and 90 ell, remove that 90. Cap the nipple left in the tee (pointing towards the wall.) remove the drip/cleanout pipe and extend the steam drip down to the floor and back up to where the cleanout pipe was removed. This would give a deeper trap for the steam drip. Provide a clean out full port ball valve in the horizontal line under the old piping (Use a tee rather than a 90 to go up to old wet return tee)

This will be the new low point for the wet return and you are bound to accumulate sludge there, and it must be checked annually or you may experience the same problems or have slow return of steam drip condensate. If that existing drip pipe has not been opened lately you will see what we are talking about.

It is quite common for each of these 4 pipes to drop down separately into the wet return which could be laying right on the floor. That way each pipe lives in its own pressure world isolated from one another by the water seal of the wet return. Each dry return would require it's own venting before its own change to wet pipe. I also have added venting to the steam main drips to speed up steam delivery. I would suggest more air vents, add at least 2 Gorton #2's on an antler assembly in addition to your Hoffman.

Hopefully the early morning Pros will chime in tomorrow AM.
Does anyone think the entire wet return pipe should be lowered?

@JUGHNE -
I think you have all the info about my pipes correct. Your evaluation of the system makes sense to me as the water level of the old boiler was probably 8 inches higher. So, we'll have to them increase venting, reconfigure the pipes you mention, add the skim port, and skim. It will be interesting to see what the installer says. Thanks again for all your insight! Will post again if your pipe solution works!

Jamie Hall

"as the water level of the old boiler was probably 8 inches higher"

I wish installers wouldn't do that. They don't have to, and it's just sloppy work. IMHO.

vaporvac

I thank you @Jamie Hall for drilling that into me before my install! I lasered the old level on the wall and constantly took measurements from it. I'm probably talking crazy, but would it be possible to use a falsehartford loop or Gifford loop at this stage of the game? I remember that was offered as an option when I wasn't certain I could get my water level right without a lot of work.

JUGHNE

Chrisnbets; It is almost more important to reply if it doesn't work, we like feedback here, good or bad. And do you understand the cleanout valve at that location? I guess maybe drop the new drip extension down to lay on a flat brick on the floor, that way the valve could have a hose attached to drain the drip leg/loop to a floor drain. Again this will be the main collection point for debris that will be released with new boiler operation. Again you want a full port ball valve, minimum of 3/4". Not the cheapie boiler drain that comes on the bottom of a water heater. They barely pass clean water.
There still may be issues with the header at boiler, but this wet return issue is just an item by itself.

Jamie; so if they would have put the boiler up on 8" blocks, and still had plenty of riser room above the boiler most of this could have been avoided? 12 dollars worth of blocks.......

nicholas bonham-carter

The only worry I would have is if some portion of the wet/dry return were now just a few inches above the new waterline. In that case the waterline in the wet return would try to rise up, and fill a very long, horizontal pipe, and could hide the entire contents of the boiler.
Keep the pressure at a couple of ounces, so there will not be more than 3-4 inches of rise in the returns.--NBC

Jamie Hall

JUGHNE said:

...

Jamie; so if they would have put the boiler up on 8" blocks, and still had plenty of riser room above the boiler most of this could have been avoided? 12 dollars worth of blocks.......

Yup...

BobC

TWELVE DOLLARS! That would have blown the budget for sure.

Bob

JUGHNE

I see now the exuberance that wild estimates can create . I better go to my small lumber yard tomorrow and price 8 x 8 x16 solid block might cost. Could it take up to 18 to make a full size bed?....exaggerations on my part then if that is the case.

chrisnbets

Ok, we're finally getting somewhere! The installers had not been able to figure things out since my last post even after giving the suggestions everyone offered. This weekend we went to get the Xmas decorations out of a room in the basement and the door wouldn't open because one of the main steam pipes was laying on the top of the door. One of the comments I received from you guys mentioned it looked like the pipe was dropped, which it was. Anyway, they raised the pipe a good 2 inches back to its original position and now the cold radiator is heating... Although we are still getting water noises in that radiator. After these changes, we started to get water hammer coming from the pipe with the main vent.

@JUGHNE, you were correct, the dry return had to be moved down below the wet return on the pipe with the main vent to get a good seal. Once this was done, the banging went away... They also added a valve as you suggested so we can flush it.

Any thoughts on the water sound in a one radiator? It is loud when the boiler turns on and the radiator is cold. As the radiator runs it quiets down a bit. The installer thinks it could be residual water left on the pipes after the raised the main pipe and that it may evaporate but he admits he's at a loss.

nicholas bonham-carter

Try raising the rad, and putting an equal number of quarters under each leg, with one or two additional under the vent end legs.
There may be a short horizontal under the floor, and raising the whole thing may repitch it.--NBC

Fred

Make sure the valve on the supply pipe for that radiator is fully open. If it is partially closed, it will let water pool in the radiator.

chrisnbets

nicholas bonham-carter said:

Try raising the rad, and putting an equal number of quarters under each leg, with one or two additional under the vent end legs.
There may be a short horizontal under the floor, and raising the whole thing may repitch it.--NBC

@NBC - They did replace the valve on the radiator which may have changed the pitch.?? When you say put the quarters on the vent end, we don't have vents on the radiator. Should the radiator pitch toward the trap or toward the main steam pipe. When I check other radiators, they tend to pitch toward the steam pipe end but just slightly. Thanks!

KC_Jones

They should all pitch toward the outlet pipe, NOT the inlet pipe. Essentially the opposite of a one pipe radiator.

chrisnbets

I hope you guys are still around. After the last fixes were made, about 1.5 weeks ago, not only are we getting water sounds in the one radiator at the end of a line on the first floor again, we are getting water rushing noises above that radiator in the second floor again, as well as some water noises inside a few other radiators which I think are all on the same main. The upstairs sound of water in the floor stopped for a while, when they accidentally dropped the main steam line 1-2 inches which caused us not to be able to open a door. But when they raised it, the water sounds came back. Could raising it too much cause this? It's pitched away from the boiler.

Also could bad traps cause this? The radiators are heating, although the the first floor radiator we have been having issue with (water sounds then adjustments were made, then not heating then adjustments were made, then heating slowly and with water sounds) is now heating. I've seen the installer open the trap but all he does is take out a metal X looking piece. He switched the X with another radiator to make sure the trap was working... Thinking if it didn't, the radiator we were having issues with would work and the other wouldn't. But now as I'm thinking about it, there has to be more working parts to the trap than a metal X.

My only other thought is that the steam leaving the boiler is too wet. I put some insulation on the near boiler pipes (we removed asbestos before the new boiler was put in) a few days ago to see if that would help but it didn't. Maybe they need to repipe using BOTH risers?

As always, any suggestions are appreciated. The installers are coming back on Wed and I want to have a game plan for them. If nothing works, I'll have to call another company and see what they can do. Just worried about the expense and I'm not sure if we will be able to get any money back from the original installers.

Sailah

Post a pic of the trap. I'll send you a new internal part for it to verify that trap is working as designed.

chrisnbets

Sailah said:

Post a pic of the trap. I'll send you a new internal part for it to verify that trap is working as designed.

Hello @Sailah, I've attached pictures of a trap. It says Mouat Vapor Heat on them. Do you think these are thermostatic traps?

Sailah

Sure looks like a Mouat Outboard trap to me. It should have an element in there. My best guess is that it takes our 4017 element and cover. I can send you one but make sure you can get the cover off first. Shoot me your address and I'll send it out Monday.

Peter