Definitive 1-pipe steam thermostat? (under $250)

ChrisJ

vr608 said:

ChrisJ said:

Anything 18AWG should be fine as long as it's rated for 24VAC or better and I recommend something with fairly durable insulation.

Uh oh. I guess the 2' section of telephone wire I spliced in will need to be replaced.

Telephones operate at more than 24VAC when they ring, so I think you're good.

The wire gauge on the other hand may be questionable.

ChrisJ

vr608 said:

Agreed, very informative post. I managed to install my FocusPro the other day, so far, so good.

Now I'm looking at an upgrade to the Vision Pro 8000 since I want to utilize the remote sensor capability; my attic bedroom is considerably cooler than the rest of the house and I'd like to average out the temperature extremes a bit better.

There's a way to wire multiple indoor sensors to make the VP 8000 average out the temperature, but you can't use it's internal one plus an external.

I seem to recall being able to either use no less than four externals, or twelve externals wired a certain way.

ChrisJ

vr608

ChrisJ said:

vr608 said:

Agreed, very informative post. I managed to install my FocusPro the other day, so far, so good.

Now I'm looking at an upgrade to the Vision Pro 8000 since I want to utilize the remote sensor capability; my attic bedroom is considerably cooler than the rest of the house and I'd like to average out the temperature extremes a bit better.

There's a way to wire multiple indoor sensors to make the VP 8000 average out the temperature, but you can't use it's internal one plus an external.

I seem to recall being able to either use no less than four externals, or twelve externals wired a certain way.

I actually was going to use the Redlink-enabled one to minimize the wiring. But yeah, I am aware that I'll probably need more than one remote sensor.

Sucks that the internal temp can't be used in the averaging though.

SteamedInWharton

I think you can use the internal sensor in the averaging on the REDLINK version when using wireless remote sensors. I haven't turned it on, but I think I saw the option in the menu.

Not a huge fan of the 8000 series so far, it seems to overshoot quite a bit as there's no anticipation. It may just be still learning. Earlier 8000s (non-redlink) had an option for a less aggressive recovery (0680) but that seems to have vanished.

vr608

Gotcha, I guess I was a bit confused. I think from the literature I've read the 8000 just won't display the temperature of the internal sensor when using temp averaging.

ChrisJ

SteamedInWharton said:

I think you can use the internal sensor in the averaging on the REDLINK version when using wireless remote sensors. I haven't turned it on, but I think I saw the option in the menu.

Not a huge fan of the 8000 series, it seems to overshoot quite a bit as there's no anticipation.

Try setting it to 2 CPH.
Don't touch for a day or two and it'll settle down.

Chances are you're going to see a few "boiler fires up, but shuts off before steam even hits the radiators" cycles but it'll iron it self out.

1 CPH flat out sucks IMO. If you have plenty of venting, 2 CPH will work. I've even done 3 CPH when it's below 0 out.

SteamedInWharton

I think it only displays the average. You can connect the outdoor sensor next to the thermostat and have it display the "outdoor" sensor as an outdoor temp (there's not really much of an outdoor reset feature built in to the 8000, it's more of a lockout for heat pumps). The REDLINK API may give readings from both sensors, I'm not sure since I only use a remote sensor (my t-stat's located on a wall backed by a short hallway with a quick heating rad on the other side).

Honeywell hasn't let me into their developer program yet. What little I know is from reading available code from other developers and looking at web page output. So far, the API doesn't tell you if the heat's on (you can interpret from stat readings, set point settings and mode/switch position) I've modified one developer's code to read whether the web app's displaying "heat on" and adding that into the program output, but I've found logging isn't quite accurate as the update interval may be too slow.

vr608

SteamedInWharton said:

I think it only displays the average. You can connect the outdoor sensor next to the thermostat and have it display the "outdoor" sensor as an outdoor temp (there's not really much of an outdoor reset feature built in to the 8000, it's more of a lockout for heat pumps). The REDLINK API may give readings from both sensors, I'm not sure since I only use a remote sensor (my t-stat's located on a wall backed by a short hallway with a quick heating rad on the other side).

Honeywell hasn't let me into their developer program yet. What little I know is from reading available code from other developers and looking at web page output. So far, the API doesn't tell you if the heat's on (you can interpret from stat readings, set point settings and mode/switch position) I've modified one developer's code to read whether the web app's displaying "heat on" and adding that into the program output, but I've found logging isn't quite accurate as the update interval may be too slow.

That's awesome, I didn't know there was a published API. I'm a coder as well and hadn't thought of the possibilities of gathering various data points. Although, from what you describe the API is pretty weak. I'm assuming the API is published somewhere, I'd like to have a look at it to see what functions are available.

Jamie Hall

ChrisJ said:

vr608 said:

ChrisJ said:

Anything 18AWG should be fine as long as it's rated for 24VAC or better and I recommend something with fairly durable insulation.

Uh oh. I guess the 2' section of telephone wire I spliced in will need to be replaced.

Telephones operate at more than 24VAC when they ring, so I think you're good.

The wire gauge on the other hand may be questionable.

For what it's worth, the old copper wired land line 'phones operated on 90 volts DC.

hvacfreak2

My favorite Visionpro is the " New " 8000 ( Blue backlight ). Mainly for other hvac features but if I was going to purchase a thermostat today that would be the one. I am almost curious about the " learning " thermostats and steam , I'm sure the logic is not geared for that in these things , but I have been wrong before.

I'm using a PID wire nut at the moment.

vr608

hvacfreak2 said:

My favorite Visionpro is the " New " 8000 ( Blue backlight ).

Yep, that's the one I'm looking to get, the TH8321R1001. Seems like it offers the most expansion options.

SteamedInWharton

vr608 said:

That's awesome, I didn't know there was a published API. I'm a coder as well and hadn't thought of the possibilities of gathering various data points. Although, from what you describe the API is pretty weak. I'm assuming the API is published somewhere, I'd like to have a look at it to see what functions are available.

The API hasn't been publicly published and is officially in *beta* with developer access only.

All code I've seen logs in and reads from Honeywell's website (mytotalconnectcomfort.com). I haven't seen anything that intercepts WiFi/redlink traffic or goes directly into the redlink<->ethernet gateway.

I first started looking around and saw some code to integrate VisionPro into Samsung Smarthings written in Groovy.

I said wouldn't it be nice if it was in Python which I just started learning (C/C++ is my "native" language). I Google'd and found some code and started modifying it:

https://github.com/nottings/python-honeywell-thermostat

(I've "forked" my own repository, but haven't uploaded any changes).
This one works by parsing the JavaScript and HTML source code for certain UI variables that have been set in the text.

I modified it to also parse the HTML/XML source looking for a specific DIV block that displays the heat icon and "Heat is on" text. The DIV block is always there, it just gets a "hidden" status when the heat's off.

Note: I have not shared what I've done with the community until now as it's all very complicated for an average Windows user. It requires a running MySQL database, multiple python modules need to be installed through "pip," and only has a simple plotting output. I get all of my data (on time, off time, overshoot) from an SQL query.

If I have the time I can tweak it a bit to use a Windows installer, a file based database, and a database parser, but it would still be command line based and inaccessible to the average Windows user.

There's another one I looked at http://www.bradgoodman.com/thermostat/therm.py
This one connects to another page on Honeywell's site and retrieves all API values via JSON and parses it. It also allows adjustments to setpoints.

vr608 said:

Yep, that's the one I'm looking to get, the TH8321R1001. Seems like it offers the most expansion options.

I ended up with that one as well, not because I needed 3 heating and 2 cooling stages, but because I found a bundle where ordering the TH8321 and the RedLink Gateway was cheaper than ordering a TH8110 and gateway separately.

Jamie Hall

Good grief. I am feeling old and obsolete...

ratio

There's a 9000 series also, color touchscreen, that adds IAQ control as well. Somewhere I saw it described as an 8000 with TrueIAQ functionality added in. Very pretty, but I don't think it's targeted at steamers.

GW

I have a HW Prestige, two wires, with EIM, with HW modem thingie for Internet connection. I may have skimmed too quickly through these posts,. .. I read you need 3 wires (c), but that's not 100% accurate. You can actually have Internet enabled stat with zero wires. If it's just steam and you can pull a new wire, do it. If you're running some advanced hvac system with bells and whistles, you may be better suited with the Prestige with its wildly infinite settings.

Many heat guys run an extra conductor for the sheer sake of having an extra wire. I did this larger 8 unit hot water conversion years ago, just simple two wire stats needed. I told the electrician to run 3 wire. Sure enough we ran into a dead conductor on the 3rd or 4the floor. And it would have been misery to redo that run.

vr608

SteamedInWharton said:

The API hasn't been publicly published and is officially in *beta* with developer access only.

All code I've seen logs in and reads from Honeywell's website (mytotalconnectcomfort.com). I haven't seen anything that intercepts WiFi/redlink traffic or goes directly into the redlink<->ethernet gateway.

I'll have to see about getting access to the developer tools. Also, based on your observations this implies one must have the gateway in order do any kind of development, which I was hoping to avoid. I don't like that all that data has to get stored on Honeywell's servers, and hopefully there is a way to circumvent it somehow. I'm more of a Javascript guy so I think I should be able to figure something out eventually.

Jamie Hall said:

Good grief. I am feeling old and obsolete...

Don't. This is way beyond what the average person in this space would be doing. Some people such as myself are generally wired to like tech, both older and cutting edge, and use that drive to delve into areas outside our primary areas of expertise.

ChrisJ

When someone releases a thermostat that can fairly accurately account for overshoot using outdoor temperature instead of being programmed to lie to me about the indoor temperature I'll be impressed.


Until then....

nicholas bonham-carter

....and when someone releases one with remote wireless sensors, capable of decent transmission distance, either RF, or power line transmission (think old Radio Shack "plug and talk" intercoms), it will be on my Christmas List!
Speaking of Christmas lists, my wish are in addition:
1. Gorton mega with the capacity of 3X Gorton #2.
2. A monitoring box, relatively inexpensive, and easily installed by the homeowner, which will monitor the electrical states of all the boiler safeties for diagnostic purposes, so you could see what was preventing operation.--NBC

SteamedInWharton

vr608 said:

I'll have to see about getting access to the developer tools. Also, based on your observations this implies one must have the gateway in order do any kind of development, which I was hoping to avoid. I don't like that all that data has to get stored on Honeywell's servers, and hopefully there is a way to circumvent it somehow. I'm more of a Javascript guy so I think I should be able to figure something out eventually.

Well my developer access request has been pending since before Thanksgiving.

If JavaScript is your thing, Honeywell uses a lot of JavaScript and JSON do do the heavy lifting on its website.

Me, I'm an electronics engineer (official job title) with an undergrad background in electrical AND computer engineering, now retraining as a software engineer. But I've done a little IA work and I'm wondering if I can eavesdrop on the gateway with a packet analyzer and maybe even spoof the HTTPS certificates (lots of embedded app developers don't incorporate strict certificate checking :-( )

higgins17

ChrisJ said:

When someone releases a thermostat that can fairly accurately account for overshoot using outdoor temperature instead of being programmed to lie to me about the indoor temperature I'll be impressed.


Until then....

That's EXACTLY what I'm looking for. So far, the Ecobee3 seems to be the top contender, except for the fact that I'm reading it doesn't allow for CPH control.

The Honeywell Smart Wifi thermostat is looking better and better. Also, their new partnership with WeatherBug to provide weather data is pretty great.

http://weatherbughome.com/honeywell/

KC_Jones

ChrisJ said:

Until then....

We will use the EcoSteam. Of course we still have to deal with that 5 minutes before setback and firing the boiler garbage...ugh.

ChrisJ

higgins17 said:

ChrisJ said:

When someone releases a thermostat that can fairly accurately account for overshoot using outdoor temperature instead of being programmed to lie to me about the indoor temperature I'll be impressed.


Until then....

That's EXACTLY what I'm looking for. So far, the Ecobee3 seems to be the top contender, except for the fact that I'm reading it doesn't allow for CPH control.

The Honeywell Smart Wifi thermostat is looking better and better. Also, their new partnership with WeatherBug to provide weather data is pretty great.

http://weatherbughome.com/honeywell/

The Ecosteam + Visionpro is by far the best on the market IMO.

vr608

SteamedInWharton said:

Well my developer access request has been pending since before Thanksgiving.

If JavaScript is your thing, Honeywell uses a lot of JavaScript and JSON do do the heavy lifting on its website.

Did some research on this earlier this morning and I stumbled across some useful info. PM me for details since we're so far off topic at this point, I think you'll be interested.

vr608

higgins17 said:

ChrisJ said:

When someone releases a thermostat that can fairly accurately account for overshoot using outdoor temperature instead of being programmed to lie to me about the indoor temperature I'll be impressed.


Until then....

That's EXACTLY what I'm looking for. So far, the Ecobee3 seems to be the top contender, except for the fact that I'm reading it doesn't allow for CPH control.

The Honeywell Smart Wifi thermostat is looking better and better. Also, their new partnership with WeatherBug to provide weather data is pretty great.

http://weatherbughome.com/honeywell/

CPH control is the primary reason I decided to go with Honeywell instead, although I'm a bit fuzzy on exactly how its implemented. The way I understand it, its simply a timer that limits the number of cycles to what is configured in a given hour...correct?

ChrisJ

vr608 said:

higgins17 said:

ChrisJ said:

When someone releases a thermostat that can fairly accurately account for overshoot using outdoor temperature instead of being programmed to lie to me about the indoor temperature I'll be impressed.


Until then....

That's EXACTLY what I'm looking for. So far, the Ecobee3 seems to be the top contender, except for the fact that I'm reading it doesn't allow for CPH control.

The Honeywell Smart Wifi thermostat is looking better and better. Also, their new partnership with WeatherBug to provide weather data is pretty great.

http://weatherbughome.com/honeywell/

CPH control is the primary reason I decided to go with Honeywell instead, although I'm a bit fuzzy on exactly how its implemented. The way I understand it, its simply a timer that limits the number of cycles to what is configured in a given hour...correct?

I doubt you're going to get an answer on this, I've been trying for years.

From my own observation, no, there's no timer. My opinion, the higher the CPH, the narrower the temperature span and the more "anticipator" so to speak.

However, as it runs, it also tweaks it self. If it finds it undershot, it'll run longer next time. If it overshoots, it'll shut off sooner etc.

Problem is, it will fine tune it self, until outdoor conditions change and they always change.

vaporvac

My only complaint with my newer HW wi-fi stat (see my tag) is that it doesn't give heat "on" time as my old one did. Also the CPH choices sforteam are 1 and 3; there's no 2, which I think would be ideal for vacuum.

higgins17

Hi All:

Seriously gunning for the Ecobee3 at this point.

I've scoured the internet about adding C-Wires.

My understanding is that the C wire essentially completes the 24v circuit and allows a constant flow of power to the thermostat. Great - I'm looking for the easiest way do do this.

WARNING disclaimer: contents below are not confirmed. I am querying the group for input.

My plan is to add a 24v DC transformer to the mix. I'd like to wire it in to the thermostat from nearby AC power outlet. The cleanest advice I could find for a 2 wire system is as follows (hoping to confirm this is universally OK):

R (from transformer) —–> Rc (on Thermostat)
C (from transformer) —–> C (on Thermostat)
R (the old R from previous boiler connection – Thermostat) —-> Rh
W (the old W from previous boiler connection – Thermostat) –> W

Is this universally OK? It sound like Honeywell gave the thumbs up on this to someone else on another board, but ecobee mentioned something about having an isolation relay (waiting for their reply about my question - their diagram is attached).

Really trying not to fry something here so any input would be great.

Thanks!
-J

vr608

higgins17 said:

Hi All:

Seriously gunning for the Ecobee3 at this point.

I've scoured the internet about adding C-Wires.

My understanding is that the C wire essentially completes the 24v circuit and allows a constant flow of power to the thermostat. Great - I'm looking for the easiest way do do this.

WARNING disclaimer: contents below are not confirmed. I am querying the group for input.

My plan is to add a 24v DC transformer to the mix. I'd like to wire it in to the thermostat from nearby AC power outlet. The cleanest advice I could find for a 2 wire system is as follows (hoping to confirm this is universally OK):

R (from transformer) —–> Rc (on Thermostat)
C (from transformer) —–> C (on Thermostat)
R (the old R from previous boiler connection – Thermostat) —-> Rh
W (the old W from previous boiler connection – Thermostat) –> W

Is this universally OK? It sound like Honeywell gave the thumbs up on this to someone else on another board, but ecobee mentioned something about having an isolation relay (waiting for their reply about my question - their diagram is attached).

Really trying not to fry something here so any input would be great.

Thanks!
-J

You're correct, the C wire essentially completes the circuit from the thermostat back to the transformer (whether on boiler/furnace or external transformer). Here is a site I came across while researching this, its pretty informative:

http://diy.stackexchange.com/questions/10482/how-can-i-add-a-c-wire-to-my-thermostat

I cannot comment about your wiring setup since I'm still getting an understanding of the controls side of things myself, and I'm also not familiar with the Ecobee.

vr608

You're correct, the C wire completes the circuit from the thermostat back to the transformer. I stumbled across the link below while researching this:

http://tinyurl.com/ljqfbpf

I can't comment on your wiring since I'm still learning, but I'm sure someone else can provide input.

LarryK

I got the Ecobee3 for a small 1 pipe system but I haven't installed it yet. I see it has a minimum on-time setting instead of the CPH setting. Right now I have a cheap programmable Honeywell set at 1 CPH and I think it needs more cycles to keep my new to me 1800 sqft two story house comfortable.

higgins17

Ecobee tech support is insisting that I need an isolation relay in the system. Has anyone installed a thermostat with the isolation relay? The Honeywell thermostats seem to be fine with the method I mentioned below (sans isolation relay). This fact alone may push me to Honeywell over Ecobee.

vr608

Have never heard of such a requirement but I've seen it implemented on this board across a few of the threads I've seen. You get better data analysis with the Ecobee in my opinion, but probably more users on this board use Honeywell.

I just got my Vision Pro today, and I'm psyched to set it up!

LarryK

higgins17 said:

Ecobee tech support is insisting that I need an isolation relay in the system.

Did they explain why?

ratio

It's quite possible that it's necessary. I wouldn't be surprised if the ecobee uses TRIACs. They have a number of good features, but high current isn't one of them.

An interposing relay is a cheap investment. When you're dealing with kilo-buck controllers, the cost of a handful of them seems sight.

higgins17

LarryK said:

higgins17 said:

Ecobee tech support is insisting that I need an isolation relay in the system.

Did they explain why?

Unfortunately, they didn't specifically say why. I'd be paying about 2x for the Ecobee3 with the extra sensors, which is becoming harder to stomach with a more complicated install.

This would be a slam dunk if the Honeywell Wi-Fi Smart thermostat allowed for remote sensors. I think they'd seriously have the market cornered with their Honeywell reputation and performance paired with some of the newer tech features that exist on that device.

Honeywell support was helpful when I called, but at the end of the day, I've had a hard time finding a turnkey kit from them that is Wi-Fi capable AND has the ability to make use of wireless sensors (other than the Ecobee, with the higher expense and more complex install). If it does exist, it would be very expensive and time consuming to piece together for a single zone, one pipe system.

vr608

higgins17 said:

This would be a slam dunk if the Honeywell Wi-Fi Smart thermostat allowed for remote sensors.

I wish that were the case as well. Unfortunately the Vision Pro 8000 series is either WIFI or Redlink, but not both. So I'm stuck having to buy a gateway just to enable remote control, another $80 investment.

higgins17

vr608 said:

higgins17 said:

This would be a slam dunk if the Honeywell Wi-Fi Smart thermostat allowed for remote sensors.

I wish that were the case as well. Unfortunately the Vision Pro 8000 series is either WIFI or Redlink, but not both. So I'm stuck having to buy a gateway just to enable remote control, another $80 investment.

Bingo! If anyone has ideas around this conundrum, please let us know!

LarryK

I see from the wiring schematic for my boiler there are a number of items connected to the thermostat so the relay is probably a good idea. I think I may have A 24V relay in my collection of salvaged relays.

LarryK

My Ecobee3 is installed and working well for one mild day so far. The thermostat I had before is a Honeywell T8000C a programmable t-stat which runs off just the R and W wires and steals power off that.
Someone mentioned adding an isolation relay for the ecobee. Funny thing was the Honeywell also needed the isolation relay, The flue damper wouldn't work with it and someone previous to me had disabled it. I got a cheap relay and a transformer and wired it to the hot side of the power cutoff switch on the boiler so the thermostat can keep working even if the switch is off. This made the whole c-wire conundrum easier to figure out. And now the flue damper works.

I set the temp differential for 2 deg and the minimum on time for 15 minutes. We'll see how this works. I also added a 3psi gauge and a vaporstat.

It's pretty cool too pull out my phone and see the same display as on the thermostat. I makes being in the basement cycling the thing a lot easier.