Triangle Tube Cold Feet

FranklinD

I went through a similar deal with my installer. The system worked, though not as well as it should have, as it was installed in the 'old' way with the circ on the return pumping towards the expansion tank, no bypass, and so on. I argued and argued and the response was "if it heats the house, there isn't a problem". Despite being piped totally contrary to the nice, large piping scheme in the install manual.

To me the point that it worked was moot...I paid a large sum of money for a boiler to be installed properly <-- key word. If the manufacturers specs aren't the definition of 'properly' then that's a whole other issue.

I complained to the manufacturer, who basically told me that since anyone can buy their products online or at a supply house, the burden was on me to verify the contractors expertise with their products. He had all the brochures, paperwork, certificates from classes attended, and whatnot. I really thought I had done my due diligence after interviewing many different companies.

I get it. It wasn't the manufacturer's responsibility at that point. Still a bummer that they couldn't recommend me to a professional installer, though.

Anyway, the skills and tools I possess for my job, along with research done here, allowed me to re-do most of the errors he made. I did try, for a year, to get him to come back to fix his errors - but once again hit the brick wall of "if it heats the house, there's nothing wrong". He didn't seem bothered by the language in the contract stating that it would be "installed to manufacturer's specs".

In the end, that statement, along with a few other items he didn't follow through on (replacing all the steel pipe with copper up to the old 3" mains, and using a size 60 Extrol tank instead of a 30, for example), was his downfall. I'm not one for randomly suing local small businesses. But I made every attempt to have him -at the very least- finish out those last two items from the signed contract. He would not, saying that it's fine as is and the steel won't hurt anything. I'm sure it won't. But I paid for its replacement already. That's the part he didn't seem to get.

Longer story short, I recovered about half of the labor dollars from the install. I didn't want to, and if I didn't have legal representation in the family, it would've cost more than I recovered, but what's done is done. I used the money to buy the materials to repipe according to the manual and replace the things he was supposed to replace. It was fun to listen to the judge admonish him in open court, though. Maybe the judge was the victim of a poor boiler install as well.

This is an issue in the industry...I hate to say more regulation is needed, but in this case it's true. DEFINITELY more training is needed. Where I live, I can install a boiler/furnace for my neighbor with no licenses, no experience, nothing. All I need is a licensed plumber to hook up the gas to the unit. When the inspector comes, all he can look at is the venting and gas supply. He has no say in how the water side plumbing is done.

I wish the OP luck in dealing with this. It's not as bad as it could be, just like mine. I'm sure it works, just like mine did. But *just working* is not what you -or I- paid for. We paid for a professional installation that, by definition, should match what the manufacturer specifies. This would then negate any concern about possible future warranty issues being denied based on installation deficiencies.

Charlie from wmass

They are pumping away from the boiler, and they did use primary secondary. The question of 12" spacing versus closely spaced tees could be argued as the 90 adds 2.5 inches or so to the length. I think the main objective is to get the best out of this install without being alarmist.

Zman

It is interesting what every sees as important issues.

I am concerned about carbon monoxide venting into the space through the contraption installed on the condensate drain.

The equivalent length of the copper 90 between the tees would be 2.5 feet , so not per manual. Not to mention all the turbulence from turning the corner. The tees should have no more than 4" of pipe between them and 8" of straight pipe on both sides.

The expansion tank is in the wrong place but the circulators have so little resistance to fight in the boiler and indirect that I doubt it will cause a problem.

There is no air separator but I bet there is no air in the system. Go figure....

Charlie from wmass

There is a trap hanging out the bottom of the boiler cabinet. I believe that addresses the co issue you refer to. Correct me if I am wrong.
Yes the elbow adds feet not inches as I originally stated so that is an issue that also needs addressed.

Zman

Charlie from wmass said:

There is a trap hanging out the bottom of the boiler cabinet. I believe that addresses the co issue you refer to. Correct me if I am wrong.

Yes the elbow adds feet not inches as I originally stated so that is an issue that also needs addressed.

I can't tell by the picture what it is. Could be a pvc trap I guess...

Charlie from wmass

It is flow created through the boiler that is an issue with not using closely spaced tees. Not the added pressure drop. It is also a fairly simple fix, especially with copper tubing.

Paul48

I can't see proper P/S, at all. I can't see proper closely spaced tee's either. The tee's I see below the boiler have a 90 between them. Maybe I'm just missing something, or not seeing all the pics.

Charlie from wmass

The tees below the boiler have a circulator in the cabinet that pump the water in and out of the system piping.

Paul48

You can't have a 90 between them and call them closely-spaced. I'm not sure. but the fact there is a 90 between them leads me to believe he used the DHW connection for CH. I'd think the manufacturer would put the connections on the same plane, considering they recommend P/S.

Steve Minnich

That's why I read manuals (and books). I find if I follow Siggy's details/spacing/etc. on P/S piping not only does it work better, it works much more quietly. Like whisper quiet.

Hat - do you agree?

Zman

At 2.5', you'll have a small pressure drop between the return and the supply. Do you think the boiler pump will object? I don't.


Kind of depends on the pressure drop of the indirect coil. Some of them have a bit more than a little resistance at decent flow rates.


I wouldn't want to take that to the bank.


It is a TT smart tank, A bath tub has more resistance...

If you specifically asked this to be piped per the manual and they did this, they should re pipe it.

If you left it to there best judgment and this is what they did, as long as it heats the house, they probably think they did a great job.

Even though there are quite a few things here that are not the best practice, it will likely heat the house.

jtz

My goal in replacing the system I had was not just to heat the whole house, my old system was doing that. It was to heat the house in a efficient manner using much less fuel than my pre-existing 50 year old system.

I did not specifically tell them to install it per the manual, I asked if they were going to install it per the manual and the answer I received was they would pipe it per the manual, but supplement in a way that was essentially, in your words, in their best judgement. I was hiring a professional, why wouldn't I trust his judgment?

When they left my home, they were proud of their work. This was not a couple of guys just trying to make a fast buck, nor were they incompetent. Their standard was not just to "heat my home."

The conclusion I've come to about many of you in my short time here is this: you are not wrong, but you demand precision, arguably extreme precision, an ideal I wholeheartedly support. However, you have to understand it's extremely difficult and arguably rare, for a consumer to achieve a service level equal to this standard. Just wading through the sea of money hungry, dishonorable quick buck artists is a challenge. Then you get to the old guard/new guard threshold and the associated knowledge gaps which a consumer is likely going to know nothing about. Then there's the installer's technical expertise in a given specialized solution. Many hurdles/barriers to a successful outcome. I spent many hours doing my research and this is what I got and for many others, they probably get much worse. For a few, they get an exceptional install that is both tops in workmanship and technical/operational design. Maybe if I had more time I could have gotten there, but there were requirements and considerations on my end too which had to be managed. Try not to lose sight of this.

Thanks to everyone who has contributed, with special thanks to Charles and Hattie.

SWEI

For me, it's more along the lines of "As long as it works, then it works. If it doesn't work, the installers may not understand why."

Gordy

https://us.v-cdn.net/5021738/uploads/FileUpload/33/1bff6e16d99b9b4523b58024eec077.jpg

Zman

jtz said:

My goal in replacing the system I had was not just to heat the whole house, my old system was doing that. It was to heat the house in a efficient manner using much less fuel than my pre-existing 50 year old system.

I did not specifically tell them to install it per the manual, I asked if they were going to install it per the manual and the answer I received was they would pipe it per the manual, but supplement in a way that was essentially, in your words, in their best judgement. I was hiring a professional, why wouldn't I trust his judgment?

When they left my home, they were proud of their work. This was not a couple of guys just trying to make a fast buck, nor were they incompetent. Their standard was not just to "heat my home."

The conclusion I've come to about many of you in my short time here is this: you are not wrong, but you demand precision, arguably extreme precision, an ideal I wholeheartedly support. However, you have to understand it's extremely difficult and arguably rare, for a consumer to achieve a service level equal to this standard. Just wading through the sea of money hungry, dishonorable quick buck artists is a challenge. Then you get to the old guard/new guard threshold and the associated knowledge gaps which a consumer is likely going to know nothing about. Then there's the installer's technical expertise in a given specialized solution. Many hurdles/barriers to a successful outcome. I spent many hours doing my research and this is what I got and for many others, they probably get much worse. For a few, they get an exceptional install that is both tops in workmanship and technical/operational design. Maybe if I had more time I could have gotten there, but there were requirements and considerations on my end too which had to be managed. Try not to lose sight of this.

Thanks to everyone who has contributed, with special thanks to Charles and Hattie.

I think you have hit it on the head.....

Rich_49

Gordy said:

https://us.v-cdn.net/5021738/uploads/FileUpload/33/1bff6e16d99b9b4523b58024eec077.jpg

Nice friggin drawing , where's the air eliminator ? LMAO

Zman

Rich,
The drawing is also missing a boiler and the heat emitters.
It just shows the appropriate components and distances in a primary/secondary piping arrangement.

Rich_49

That was a bit of humor . Simmer down ! Just in case no one has realized it yet there is plenty of equipment out there at this point in time that requires no such nonsense and all these redundant discussions can cease .. Time for a cranial rectal reversal procedure boys .

No offense to the artist whom drew that but maybe the installer had such a drawing that he worked from . If you're gonna post drawings you might wanna make sure they don't confuse the issue further . I really did not require an explanation of the drawings meaning and omissions Carl

Zman

Sorry,
I forgot the "most of new jersey" sense of humor.
I think Mark Eatherton originally posted that one.
I think the OP has a good grip on this one and it ha been a good conversation.
Carl

Boilerman209

Isn't that the OEM air eliminator on top of the boiler? And it looks like there is one on top of the indirect. BTW how do you drain the domestic from it?

Boilerman209

I knew if one installer in my area who never used used an "air eliminator" other than a standard float vent. I have been servicing those customers for years. Never experience air bound problems.

SWEI

Hatterasguy said:

Boilerman209 said:

how do you drain the domestic from it?

You need to put a Shrader valve on the hot outlet and a boiler drain at the cold inlet with isolation valves ahead. Apply some air pressure and force the water up and out of the tank. Very few contractors set this up properly at the install.

And a surprising number forget that you must drain the outer tank first.

Gordy

K

SWEI

It's far easier to build a pressure vessel than a vacuum vessel.

Boilerman209

Why not put a 3/4" boiler drain where the relief valve is installed and use the dip tube provided. Put the waterheater on 4" solid block and let the laws of physics work for you. Install a 3/4" brass tee on the outlet side with the relief valve.

Boilerman209

Go Patriots

Charlie from wmass

Replacing a leaking tt tank on Monday. It has the weil mclain label but is a tt tank. Weil McLain us replacing it with the new model. Some last great others are like this job and this is the third replacement since 2004. Water was tested by weil mclain and is within parameters.

SWEI

We spec Webstone Ball Drains on both DHW and boiler ports.

Garden hose x air fittings are already in the toolkit for a number of reasons.

Boilerman209

Had plenty of those leakers on the weil mclain indirects. They were priced les expensive that the TTs at the time. Saw the two production lines down in Blackwood. No reason why one badged as W/M and one badged as T T should fail more often.

Boilerman209

Leaks on both sides of those indirects though. Never had them at the same time I don't think. Starts very slowly and evaporates so you don't know there leaking. Saturates the jacket to the point where you can't lift it up alone.

Boilerman209

TT will not give you one of theirs for a replacement. You have to take the W/M.

Gordy

Hatterasguy said:

SWEI said:

Hatterasguy said:

Boilerman209 said:

how do you drain the domestic from it?

You need to put a Shrader valve on the hot outlet and a boiler drain at the cold inlet with isolation valves ahead. Apply some air pressure and force the water up and out of the tank. Very few contractors set this up properly at the install.

And a surprising number forget that you must drain the outer tank first.

Well, you probably do not need to drain it............relieving the boiler pressure is sufficient.

I still find it surprising that the inner tank can take an internal pressure of 75 psi but cannot accept an external pressure of 15 psi. Seems almost impossible.

Think empty beer can. Pretty easy to crush to failure, very much harder to blow up to failure.

Charlie from wmass

They leak between the inner and outer tanks. They also leak through the wells.

Zman

Both the boiler install and the detail for the smart tank drain is explained clearly in the manual.
Why won't these guys just follow the instructions.
There is nothing complicated about this installation. The installers made it complicated.

Paul48

I think that is what we all get stuck on. These are "state-of-the-art" pieces of equipment. Just follow the directions.....nothing more, nothing less. You don't even have to understand P/S. Just follow their suggested piping diagrams. Insert expletive here....your choice!

Charlie from wmass

Hey quit giving away my secrets.

Charlie from wmass

Install a Super Stor tank. I like the tt tanks, but cannot control the world around them.

Gordy

Hatterasguy said:

Zman said:

Both the boiler install and the detail for the smart tank drain is explained clearly in the manual.
Why won't these guys just follow the instructions.
There is nothing complicated about this installation. The installers made it complicated.

Yes, you can install it and operate it per the manual.

Consider the following possibilities:

1) The utility does service in the street and shuts the water down for a few hours. The inner tank depressurizes to the street.

2) The HO does some work on the plumbing system and shuts off the main valve. Somebody in the house opens a hot water tap.


Nothing on the installed indirect prevents a catastrophic failure of the inner tank in either of the two above scenarios.

I do not see how to protect against such an outcome. A check valve on the inlet won't fix #2.

My interpretation is to eliminate the possibility of drawing down the inner tank for service with one of the three methods in the I/O manual., and putting it under a negative pressure that could result in the collapse of the inner tank from positive pressure, and or the weight of the water in the outer tank as the inner tank is drawn down.

In your scenarios I doubt the tank would go under a vacuum as long as the inner tank is full, or all most full I doubt anything would happen, all though anything is possible. Like Charlie says you can't control the world.


Edit: what I'm saying is if both inner, and outer tanks are full under no pressure I doubt damage would occur to the inner tank.

Bob Bona_4

Yeah i was thinking the same thing as Gordy, what's going to happen, if the tank is full or near full, 0 pressure on it. Water going to get squeezed out like a baster?

Gordy

Frankly there is a lot of stress on that inner tank as far as expansion, and contraction going through draw downs, and being heated back up to temp. That is most certainly why they don't have a simple means of draining the inner tank. Anything going from the inner tank to the shell to provide drainage like a normal tank would most certainly fail in time.