Click here to Find a Contractor in your area.
Welcome! Here are the website rules, as well as some tips for using this forum.
Need to contact us? Visit https://heatinghelp.com/contact-us/.

Basic energy flow question...

Mark Eatherton
Mark Eatherton Member Posts: 5,837
It has been bantered about that energy flows from hot to cold, correct? ALWAYS...

ME
It's not so much a case of "You got what you paid for", as it is a matter of "You DIDN'T get what you DIDN'T pay for, and you're NOT going to get what you thought you were in the way of comfort". Borrowed from Heatboy.

Comments

  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 11,492
    It's always been said that energy flows from something with a lot of it, to something with less. Yes.

    Are people actually arguing a proven fact?
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • Robert O'Brien
    Robert O'Brien Member Posts: 3,271
    Isn't that the second law of thermodynamics? I
    To learn more about this professional, click here to visit their ad in Find A Contractor.
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 14,552

    It has been bantered about that energy flows from hot to cold, correct? ALWAYS...

    ME

    Along the lines of "energy cannot be created or destroyed"?

    A simple laymen explanation at this link.

    http://www.livescience.com/50941-second-law-thermodynamics.html
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 11,492
    hot rod said:

    It has been bantered about that energy flows from hot to cold, correct? ALWAYS...

    ME

    Along the lines of "energy cannot be created or destroyed"?

    A simple laymen explanation at this link.

    http://www.livescience.com/50941-second-law-thermodynamics.html
    Which is why set backs must work. They lower heat loss and since we cannot destroy energy, you do not "waste energy reheating everything in the building".
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • Harvey Ramer
    Harvey Ramer Member Posts: 2,215
    There are other arguments but they are beyond the realms of our current daily use.
    Ramer Mechanical
    ramermechanical.com
    To learn more about this professional, click here to visit their ad in Find A Contractor.
  • Mark Eatherton
    Mark Eatherton Member Posts: 5,837
    Over the years, I have heard more than one GSHP expert make the claim that the GHP systems are actually just recovering the free solar energy that falls on the face of the Earth.

    For example, http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/solar-at-home/is-a-geothermal-heat-pump-right-for-you/

    If the Earth's molten core is 10,800 degrees F, and the surface is obviously much cooler than that, then common sense would tell me that the energy being recovered from the buried pipe in vertical bore holes is coming from the core of the Earth, and not the Earth surface.

    To their credit, they do state that in shallow app's the energy is coming from the Sun, but they don't make the distinct difference between VBH's and horizontal fields, which I think is misleading.

    Just food for thought....

    Thanks for chiming in.

    ME
    It's not so much a case of "You got what you paid for", as it is a matter of "You DIDN'T get what you DIDN'T pay for, and you're NOT going to get what you thought you were in the way of comfort". Borrowed from Heatboy.
  • SWEI
    SWEI Member Posts: 7,356

    If the Earth's molten core is 10,800 degrees F, and the surface is obviously much cooler than that, then common sense would tell me that the energy being recovered from the buried pipe in vertical bore holes is coming from the core of the Earth, and not the Earth surface.

    If that VBH is deep enough, it is. True geothermal (as opposed to geo-exchange.)
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 11,492
    Dumb question but, without solar how would that core stay @ 10,800f?

    Wouldn't it cool, or, is something else taking place?
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • BobC
    BobC Member Posts: 5,182
    As I understand it the cores heat comes from decaying thorium and to a lesser extent uranium.

    Bob
    Smith G8-3 with EZ Gas @ 90,000 BTU, Single pipe steam
    Vaporstat with a 12oz cut-out and 4oz cut-in
    3PSI gauge
  • Gordy
    Gordy Member Posts: 9,530
    Bob has about 90% of it here is a link.
    http://phys.org/news/2006-03-probing-earth-core.html

    Mark I highly doubt you are questioning yourself.

    Hot to Cold.
    High pressure to low pressure.
    Humid air to dry air.

    mother nature seeks equilibrium.....You said it.

    As far as the GSHP guys are concerned. In a transitional climate where seasons are prominent. Solar energy heating the ground has its limit on depth of penetration before seasons change, and wiinter sets in. With VBH I think you are far beyond solar influence.
    Mark Eatherton
  • Rich_49
    Rich_49 Member Posts: 2,559
    The only heat that is from solar with VBH is what is left there during cooling season . The rest as stated is rising from below . Everywhere cannot have a vent .
    You didn't get what you didn't pay for and it will never be what you thought it would .
    Langans Plumbing & Heating LLC
    732-751-1560
    Serving most of New Jersey, Eastern Pa .
    Consultation, Design & Installation anywhere
    Rich McGrath 732-581-3833
    Mark Eatherton
  • JStar
    JStar Member Posts: 2,752
    edited July 2015
    ChrisJ said:

    Dumb question but, without solar how would that core stay @ 10,800f?

    Wouldn't it cool, or, is something else taking place?

    Friction from when the Earth was forming. The inside of our planet is more of a hot swirling mess than your prom date.
    Rich_49SWEISteve Minnich
  • Jamie Hall
    Jamie Hall Member Posts: 15,373
    Dear old Lord Kelvin was confused on why the core of the earth is hot, too, so don't feel too bad. He didn't know about radioactivity! The core heat is from radioactive decay. Since the surface of the earth is much cooler, that heat migrates to the surface (hot to cold!) and, below a few tens to hundreds of feet (hundreds in deep permafrost regions -- Siberia, for instance) the rock temperature is accounted for entirely by that heat transfer. At shallower depths, the relatively small variations from the local surface climate influence the temperature -- but the summer to winter swings only go down a few feet; perhaps tens of feet.

    Warmer regions in the crust -- Iceland, for example, or Yellowstone -- are that way because of much better heat transfer from the core.
    Br. Jamie, osb
    Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England
  • Jason_13
    Jason_13 Member Posts: 297
    I have read that they have been monitoring the earth core temp since the late 1800's. The core temp is dropping about the same rate per decade since they have been monitoring it,
  • Paul48
    Paul48 Member Posts: 4,492
    edited July 2015
    They are probably scientists Mark. If you apply the science of the whole topic you used for this post, you know how "they" could do it.
    They would need the assistance of well-diggers though.
    Mark Eatherton
  • Jamie Hall
    Jamie Hall Member Posts: 15,373
    The measurement is indirect and inferred. No one's been there to put a thermometer in! But the solid to liquid transition temperatures of the possible materials are pretty well known, and the possible range of materials is pretty well known, and the depths to solid to liquid transitions are pretty well known -- and the rate of heat transfer to the surface is quite well known, actually.

    But it's still an educated, though well educated, estimate...
    Br. Jamie, osb
    Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England
    Mark EathertonZman
  • Paul48
    Paul48 Member Posts: 4,492
    Sort of ..... like solving for btu/h, using the Universal Hydronic Formula,on a much larger scale. Simply monitoring annual change is easy, once you establish a baseline.
    Mark Eatherton
Sign In or Register to comment.

Welcome

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!