pipe diameter?

klagreca

Hi folks!
So I have a pretty straightforward system. I basically have a main header that runs straight to both ends of the house. Problem is, the dead man that originally installed it, didn't pitch the line so sitting water in the pipe has caused pin-hole leaks. My summer project is to rip out the old main and redo the entire line, this time correctly pitched, and also split the main so that its not a single T coming off the riser.

So two quick questions:
1. for the 10 foot line that has only 2 radiators on it, should I run a 2 inch header, or can I get away with something smaller?
2. In general, how do I know if 2 inch for the main header is correct? I couldn't find anywhere on how to calculate pipe diameters for steam. Is there a mathematical formula here?

Thanks for your help! Kris

Jamie Hall

You really should have a copy of "The Lost Art of Steam Heating", by Dan (our leader!) -- available from this site. Cheap. And will tell you everything you ever wanted to know about steam heat...

Including some very handy and useful tables for pipe sizing.

klagreca

Funny that you mention that. I bought TWO of his books, but not that one. I wish I would have known that! It's hard to tell when looking at Amazon which one of Dan's books is the most complete one/the one you really need. .

I'll pick that one up too though. Thanks Jamie!

nicholas bonham-carter

You might as well redo the pipes at the boiler as well, as they are not correct.
It looks as though your mains are "counter-flow", with no dry return. As the condensate flows back to the boiler against the flow of steam, a larger pipe size is needed. Provision for a main vent or two should be made at the ends of each main.--NBC

Paul48

You have no header. The pipes running off either side of the tee are your mains. The good thing is, you have the opportunity to get it done right, and it's not a huge system.
http://www.comfort-calc.net/Steam_Piping_Donts.html
http://www.comfort-calc.net/steam_Piping.html

Steamhead

The logo on that boiler, while faded, looks like Peerless. If so, that company is still going strong- maybe you could call them with the model number and get a copy of the manual. This would include a piping diagram, which you would use as a minimum standard.

It would be a good idea to install the header so it could still be used with a replacement boiler when the time comes. That way you wouldn't have to do it over.

There are plenty of examples on this board of how a proper header should look. Here are a few of ours:

http://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/151822/two-recent-steamers

http://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/150537/three-recent-steamers

KC_Jones

Jamie Hall said:

You really should have a copy of "The Lost Art of Steam Heating", by Dan (our leader!) -- available from this site. Cheap. And will tell you everything you ever wanted to know about steam heat...

Including some very handy and useful tables for pipe sizing.

I will second that! There are tables for the mains and takeoffs. You will need to calculate the EDR of each rad to size the pipe accordingly. The EDR calculation will also tell you how well sized the boiler is to your house, many times they are oversized and this is good to know should a replacement be needed in the future. I also agree your near boiler piping is all wrong and should be redone when you do the pipe work. I am attaching a link to what I think might be the manual for your boiler. Look at the pictures for proper near boiler piping. If that is your boiler it is supposed to have a 3" tapping on top and if you can I would certainly use 3" into a 3" header then connect your mains to that. It will give you nice dry steam for sure. Just read the manual they actually say to run a full size tapping in that manual! Just my $.02 worth.
http://managemylife.com/mmh/lis_pdf/INSTL/1012582L.pdf

Paul48

klagreca...... I'm just a machinist with a love of all things mechanical. You have at your disposal, some of the best steam craftsmen/women in all of North America. I'm in my mid-50's( not old,don't care what they say), but I still find that amazing.

vaporvac

klagreca said:

Problem is, the dead man that originally installed it, didn't pitch the line so sitting water in the pipe has caused pin-hole leaks.
blockquote>
I just wanted to say that the mis-pitched lines are probably the result of house settling or pipes sagging over time. I know this is neither here nor there with the end result, but I feel so protective of the dead men.

RobG

If there is one thing the dead men knew how to use, it was a level, it never lies!

klagreca

So a quick conclusion to this story (I feel I owe it to all of you since you took the time to respond). I couldn't get any of the pipes disconnected throughout the system. There was copper right to the boiler which I understand to be incorrect. Everything was welded together after the years of use. So I decided to scrap the entire system and instead convert it to hot water. Got a nice GV90+ and a ran copper monoflo loop. I'm almost done with that project and while I'll miss the nostalgia of steam, I think I made the right choice. Thanks again everyone!

Dave0176

klagreca said:

So a quick conclusion to this story (I feel I owe it to all of you since you took the time to respond). I couldn't get any of the pipes disconnected throughout the system. There was copper right to the boiler which I understand to be incorrect. Everything was welded together after the years of use. So I decided to scrap the entire system and instead convert it to hot water. Got a nice GV90+ and a ran copper monoflo loop. I'm almost done with that project and while I'll miss the nostalgia of steam, I think I made the right choice. Thanks again everyone!

OMG!!! You've commited a mortal sin. Well it's all over now anyway. Funny thing is only a few piping corrections was all that was needed and you'dve had a beautiful system. "I" beleive you will regret this decision...........

Steamhead

Not to mention you spent a lot of money that you didn't need to spend.................

ChrisJ

Typical.
Don't understand something so you rip it out.

I don't know if they will regret their decision but I regret reading this thread.

KC_Jones

Many of us have now died a little inside.... Did you do a heatloss? Did you calculate the output of your current radiators at the now reduced output to make sure they will heat the house? Good luck to you.

ChrisJ

I'm a little confused.
You couldn't remove one pipe, but managed to remove all of them?

Fred

Shame on you. After we tried to help you with the steam system (which certainly could have been corrected) , our reward is a post like this. As they say, No good deed goes unpunished but why did you feel compelled to tell us about it? As Dave0176 said, the deed is done. Best of luck to you.

Bob Bona_4

And the pile- on commences...:(

vaporvac

What's done is done. My heart did die a little, but It is nice that he let us know what he did because that may help answer future questions to avoid this. Maybe he couldn't find anyone to work on it, but someone that was happy to rip it out and re-do. I almost fell into that trap, but fortunately it was a fortune! It's hard to find a good steam person, and without a thorough understanding of the system and a willingness to slog through the proposed piping to direct a plumber, it's often a hard place to be.

I think @klagreca did try to understand the system, judging from his prior posts. That's really what I find most disconcerting. Where did Strictly Steam go wrong? I think part of the answer is in the comment "I will miss the nostalgia". The perception is that steam is just nostalgic with no real place in "modern" heating systems which of course, isn't true. This is why I'm so excited by the mini-tube. It's a shame we can't get to homeowners before a change like this to encourage a mini-tube install. That would be awesome. Of course, if one can't re-do a normal steam Nbpiping, I guess mini-tube would be out of the question, but copper is easier to work with.
I never did understand the original post, to be honest. It seemed strange that all the piping was in copper.

Fred

As I re-read this thread, it's pretty clear to me that this Poster didn't ask many questions, mis-labeled mains vs. header, risers, etc. and spoke about the mistakes of the dead men. Someone other than a dead man had their hands on that system and that's probably when the failures started. Anyway, we didn't do a very good job of trying to guide him/her. He could have done a better job of educating himself on his system and we could have done a better job of pointing out the issues that were obvious and advising him on how to correct those issues or directed him to a Pro in his area.
Who knows, we all may have been too engrossed in another thread about how to properly size a boiler to be at our best on this situation. Let's learn from this and maybe make a mental note to follow up with a poster if we haven't heard from them in a few days.

Charlie from wmass

kind of off topic but I will say it, even the dead men had low bidders and bad installation practices. I have yet to see a reamed pipe that I take out and the eccentric fitting died due to lack of demand. Just had to be honest from the trenches.

ChrisJ

I don't know if it was from low bidders or not, but many old systems are far from perfect and always have been. For example the lack of a header and a hartford loop on systems installed in the 1920s-1930s. This was clearly unacceptable even then and the huge boilers just tolerated ir.

Charlie won't like the pipes I do as I don't own a reamer, couldn't justify it after blowing a ton on a good pipe vise, pipe cutter and the 65R-TC. I do use a round file though and make sure the pipe isn't reduced at all but they don't end up with the nice tapered look.

Imperfect work or not lets remember most older systems were installed by guys using nothing other than manual threaders and modern day guys often complain and whine about having to even carry a manual threader because "its thwooooo hwweavvyy... "

Charlie from wmass

Chris I was going to suggest a round or half round file. I would be thrilled to see even that. My point is assume the original installation was done by anyone other than a mortal man with all his weaknesses and stress factors is a mistake I often see. People see a pipe and say "It has been there 80 years it must be correct and the problem is elsewhere" . I look and say yep that's wrong cut it out and correct it. Perfect is not needed to be good with fixing steam problems. Occam's razor is my motto. The simple solution.
Lost Art of steam has the pipe sizing chart. The man got his answer and moved on. when he gets done reading that if he has any questions he will come back. He will also learn all the right names for the parts. Most contractors use two names Stuff and S h ice tea. Good things are stuff bad things are Sh ice tea.

ChrisJ

I have a 1 1/4" runout to a 60sqft radiator in my livingroom.
I can't remember the numbers but I'm pretty sure that pipe is technically too small for that size radiator.

It's never complained so I have no plans on fixing it but the point is............ it's wrong and it's still wrong after 80 years. Time doesn't fix wrong.

Charlie from wmass

but the fun thing is even when they are wrong they sometimes still work well enough where it is never changed. Your low pressure I feel is helping that run out work without banging.

ChrisJ

In that case it's not an issue, but if it was hammering I'd be looking into changing it regardless of what others put up with for many years.

Yanno?

I think we agree.

Dave0176

Charlie you are right, I see lotz of stuff piped wrong thats been there for 80 years. See a lot runouts piped at 90 degrees off the main, see a lot of runouts piped waaay more 10 feet before the upfeed riser, for no reason other then it was conveinent to not run a second main. A lot of the 80 year old systems I've seen are bullheaded into both mains, as Chris said no header no Hartford loop.

Just today I priced a oil converted coal steam replacement, old American Radiator Co. coal boiler, a single 2" riser right into a bullhead tee. Also there are no main vents on the system so to speak of.

Charlie from wmass

They had coal modulation and large steam chests.