Total Failure on all pex lines in new construction

jermann

Hi Everyone
I am looking for answers on the 100% total failure on the pex tubes that was installed in my garage. The plumber I used didn't understand how the legend manifold worked. He had the flow gauges screwed in tight. This means that the air test was performed wrong. He had the air gauge on the supply side and with the flow gauges screwed in the air never left the manifold. The air gauge should have be placed on the return side. The County or township inspector never caught this mistake. When the concrete contractor poured the concrete. He used a concrete buggy. The gauge showed that we had air pressure BUT in reality the air truly was not in the lines. The concrete contractor used 4' x 8' sheets of plywood to spread the weight out. I did see him run off of the plywood a few times. The plumbing supply company I believe told the plumber to tighten down the flow valves. My question who is at fault?

Tinman

How do you know there is 100% failure of the pex tubing? Pressure test or no pressure test, I've never heard of every loop having a leak. Never. In fact, the only instances where I've seen leaks in tubing poured in concrete, without couplings, is when the carpenters shot nails into them when setting walls.

Please tell us how you know that. Was each individual loop pressure tested after the fact and none of the loops held pressure?

jermann

When we started to add water to the system. We noticed that when we shut off the water from the garden hose we would loose pressure. we kept adding water a little at a time. we started to see air bubbles coming up through the concrete. we shut all the valves on the manifold and turn them on line one at a time. all the loops would not hold water pressure. some of the loops had worst leaks then others but in the end all loops leaked

rick in Alaska

Ditto that. I can maybe see one line with a problem, but not all of them. Pex tubing is very tough and can stand some very rough abuse and still work ok.
The only time I have ever had a problem with tubing in a slab was when a heating system went down last year for over a week in low temps, and then only half the tubes were split.
Let us know please.
Rick

jermann

it was new construction. it never had water added to the system.
You don't suppose the pex had a manufacturing problem

Harvey Ramer

If air bubbles are coming up through the concrete, the concrete is still wet. In wet concrete air bubbles come to the surface every time on every pour regardless of what is or isn't in the slab. Testing with water pressure is very difficult. Depending on the material you are testing, 1 drop of water is the difference between a thousand or more PSI and zero psi. Reason being, water is hydraulic and cannot be compressed. Test the manifold and loops with air pressure. In order to be sure you don't have any leaks on the manifold itself, use a bubble solution to test for leaks on every port and every tapping in the manifold.

Pex is very tough and I find it a stretch to believe that every loop is compromised.

Zman

This is a strange one, pex failures are rare. The stuff is really tough. What type of pex is it?
The good news is that there are many better heat sources for a garage. If you already have a boiler, I would suggest something like this http://www.modinehvac.com/web/Hot-Dawg/Hot-Dawg-H2O.htm#.VPzwx-EvzVI

In the end, the fault lies with everyone involved. The plumber is the one who should have known better....

jermann

the concrete was saw cut at 1" and yes everyone is going to say that the saw cut the pex. I don't believe that is the problem. if it was saw cut I would have a sprinkler looking effect in the garage. we blew out the saw cuts add some liquid soap and added water. we had plastic put down then 1" foam, wire mesh and pex. after addind alot of water. the water filled up the plastic swimming pool and started seeping up onto the floor. everywhere. There was bubbles everywhere. and as soon as we shut off adding water. The pump would struggle.

Harvey Ramer

Ok, sounds like you definitely have a disaster. For my personal info, What brand of pex was used?

jermann

The pex i used was wirsbo by uponor

Harvey Ramer

Failures like you are describing are unheard of from Uponor. They make some of the best pex in the world and offer a 30 year warranty against manufacturer defects.

If the pex is leaking like you describe, 99% likelihood that your contractors are to blame.

jermann

Uponor's response was cut up the floor and send us a sample where it leaks. If it is a manufacturing problem they might replace the pex and floor. I have been working with the sales rep for about 3 weeks. His boss doesn't want to get involved because they don't have any skin in the game unquote

jermann

not to change the subject - but I think if I am going to put heat in my new garage I will have to pay for it again myself. Does anyone have any experence withe the Buderus wall panels - would they heat my floor at all?

Harvey Ramer

The REP most certainly has the responsibility to be involved!! They are afforded profit from the sale of the product and are supposed to represent the manufacturer. Any person who ever sells any product for profit, assumes some degree of responsibility for the integrity of the product.

You should not have to pay again to heat your garage unless it was through fault of your own.

One thing, pretty much all pex is susceptible to is UV light. Was the pex, by any chance left or stored outside for a length of time? There is a local wholesaler who keeps their pex outside. I told them about it and they didn't care.

I would be getting to the root of this, someone is at fault.

BobC

Something went terribly wrong somewhere. Are you REALLY sure those cuts were only 1" deep. i would go along those cuts to be sure there isn't any plastic showing.

Bob

jermann

Harvey
I don't know if the pex was left outside at the plumbing supply house or not. I do know that it was at my house inside my garage the two days that I had it.

jermann

Bob - I went around with a stainless steel ruler and measured every saw cut and took a photo of the ruler in the cut - all were 1" deep.

Harvey Ramer

BobC said:

Something went terribly wrong somewhere. Are you REALLY sure those cuts were only 1" deep. i would go along those cuts to be sure there isn't any plastic showing.

Bob

jermann said:

Harvey
I don't know if the pex was left outside at the plumbing supply house or not. I do know that it was at my house inside my garage the two days that I had it.

Like Bob said, take a small pick and a light and make sure that tubing didn't get cut.

Uponor pex is really tough material. I was at the factory multiple times. I saw them stretch it out till is was as thin as a pencil and it didn't break or tear loose from the fittings.

Harvey Ramer

jermann said:

Bob - I went around with a stainless steel ruler and measured every saw cut and took a photo of the ruler in the cut - all were 1" deep.

Did they pull up the wire mesh while they poured the cement? Did it lay completely flat to begin with?

They make plastic strips to place in the concrete while it is still wet instead of sawcutting. This is the proper solution when you have tubing in the floor.

jermann

would the concrete buggy be the reason for the failure?

Harvey Ramer

jermann said:

would the concrete buggy be the reason for the failure?

Highly unlikely.

Unless it had steel wheels....

jermann

bob - I think if the pex was cut with the saw. We should see water almost right away. We have to add alot of water before it starts to show up on the floor. This makes me think that the pex is embedded deeper in the concrete

jermann

uponor says you don't really need air pressure in the pex to do the pour. It just helps show you if you get a leak. The concrete buggy had air filled tires.

jermann

Bob - the concrete also was 6" thick. I know there is a chance that the pex floated up toward the top.

JUGHNE

How many loops? How is the PEX fastened to the mesh? Had the installer done this before?

Any pictures of pex before pour?

BobC

I have never used PEX but after 40 years of working in engineering know things happen when you least expect them to - I have been bitten by things like this more than once.. If the PEX was sticking up just a bit it could have been nicked and taken some pressure to push to failure. The fact the failure was so widespread tells me it was either the PEX being nicked by that saw blade or the PEX was stored where sunlight could have caused UV failure.

Do your homework carefully, there is a lot of money at stake here.

good luck,

Bob

hot_rod

Pex does become brittle when it's cold. What type of ties did they use?

Was the pex right on gravel, some crushed base rock is very sharp.
I'd test every loop removed from the manifold so you aren't crossing over from loop to loop.

Should be some insurance money available from the installer or manufacturer if you find the problem.

Alan (California Radiant) Forbes

Buderus wall panels will not heat your floor. (Was that a serious question?)
I'm not familiar with the Legend manifolds; all of the manifolds I've used (Watts, Rehau, etc.) have the flow gauges already installed.
I'm with BobC and think the plumber was good. Someone else was the bad boy.
If I were you, I'd get someone in there that knows radiant heating and is willing to do some forensics. Where are you located?

jermann

we put plastic down, then 1" foam then wire mesh. The pex was fastened to the mesh with wire ties. Me and my sons also went back and added some plastic zip ties.

jermann

i am located in PA

Harvey Ramer

jermann said:

i am located in PA

What part of PA?

jermann

Buderus claims that the wall panel has radiant and other heating
qualities. meaning heating objects like the floor and the air

jermann

Flow gauges were already installed. but if you tighten them down they shut off the flow from leaving the mainifold, air or water. the flow gauges have to be loosened counter clock wise to open and allow flow. remember lefty looser and righty tighty well someone did a righty and closed the flow valve. since the air gauge was on the supply side and not the return side. no one caught this even the inspector

JUGHNE

Just a story of proof that stuff happens. A relative of mine in the business was having a basement floor poured over his pex job. Helper on site monitoring the air pressure at manifold. Suddenly pressure drop and he could hear air leak. One concrete worker threw down a cigarette on top of a pex tube and burned a hole in the tube. Repair was made on site and pour continued.
If it happens again I think he would stop the pour and replace the entire circuit. There is a lot of ground outside to dump out a concrete truck on. Smoking is really an expensive habit.
Probably not your problem, but just something to throw out there. Concrete workers and sheetrock guys don't worry about a lot of stuff.

jermann

jefferson county

Harvey Ramer

jermann said:

jefferson county

3 hours from my location. Was hoping you would be a bit closer. I don't really know of anyone qualified in that region.

Tinman

I may be way off base here but it almost sounds like sabotage or vandalism? It's almost impossible to screw something up that bad unless you were trying.

jermann

I don't really know of anyone either. I pretty much live in the middle of nowhere. I have been working on this problem for about 2 months now. And it is going nowhere. Just thought someone here might have a good idea.

Zman

Is the water appearing first in the saw cuts? The chances that some of the tubing floated up to the upper inch of the slab is real.
Out of 100's of radiant slabs, have seen perhaps a half dozen leaks. Never more that one per job always human error..
The Buderus panels will not heat the floor. The runtals won't either but they are less bulky.
Why do you want to heat the garage floor? Are you walking around barefoot or something? Why heat up a large thermal mass in a wildly fluctuating heating environment like a garage?

jermann

The water does not show up in the saw cuts first. only after adding alot of water to the system. The reason I wanted to heat the floor was me and the boys like to work on our toys. Everyone tells me how nice it is to not have a cold floor when you are doing repairs to the toys. I am looking for other heating options.

hot_rod

Sounds really strange, be good to know the final result.

I put a radiant ceiling in a body shop garage years ago. Not quite as nice as warm floors but it did heat the space well.

I used ThermoFin plates and put copper tube into them. It fastened against the metal ceiling and turned the whole ceiling into a large panel rad of sorts.

Blower type heaters are quick, and another option for shops, or infrared tube style if you want the radiant effect.