Total Failure on all pex lines in new construction

jermann

I thought about the infarred tube style. I have a friend who has those in his garage, and his garage floor is warm, and it dries up the wet floor fast. I already have the hot water ran to the garage. Since I already have this done I was thinking of wall panels as a second thought.

JUGHNE

Is the concrete buggy dumped out like a wheelbarrow? We used a wheelbarrow and I was really concerned about how it was dumped. It was tipped up and the steel part/nose would usually be put down right tight on the floor/tubing and then the operator would twist and shake to empty. So I would be the PITA putting a piece of plywood under the nose for each dump of the barrow to save the tubing from possible harm.
It is good we got done in one day as that crew really didn't want to do this again. (well for a couple of weeks anyway.)
Just another note of probably mindless chatter is that before our sunroom was poured I noticed holes appearing in the poly under the mesh/tubing assembly. It seems that pocket gofers had gotten under the floor thru an unsealed pipe chase leading outside and liked to feast on plastic. So the concrete is due to arrive in a few days; there was spiral HVAC duct buried under this whole project and a radio playing loud C&W music placed in the duct made them leave my home for elsewhere. The PB tubing has held water for 20 plus years.
But it is not the time of year for pocket gofers is it? Sorry

jermann

well guys - I guess that is all for tonight thank you for your thoughts
Best Regards
Jermann

ProblemSolver

Stephen Minnich said:

I may be way off base here but it almost sounds like sabotage or vandalism? It's almost impossible to screw something up that bad unless you were trying.

After reading everything, and I work with Uponor Pex, I'd say sabotage is most likely, then UV light damage second. Uponor's Pex is superior. You did say that all the loops are leaking? Therefore, sabotage is the only thing that fits.

SWEI

Uponor is a first class company with a first class product and first class support. Get the rep involved. In the hands of a pro, warm or hot water and a thermal imaging camera should pinpoint the problem in short order.

Pressure (but not too much) during the pour is a good idea. Test gauges are cheap -- we leave them on the job until trim-out.

Weezbo

This does not sound like a product failure , for what it is worth.
These saw cuts, site compaction, and cement laying all have possibilities of creating problems. While testing the pex can be done prior to a pour , i have seen many miles of pex installed without any hydro static pressure or air pressure on them during the pour ,... During extremely cold weather ,104 in the shade , intermittent showers,snow , ...a wide range of weather conditions.
If you wire tie and also use zip ties there is little chance of getting it wrong. often we would like to practice some consideration for the people with whom we work , so , we like to have a pour ready slab, previously tested , the night prior to the pour , tested and inspected in the morning ....
Did you use sheet mesh or rolled?
did you have an envious "Buddy" see your work and sabotage the whole works?

I saw a tool one year some time ago, it was like a very thin needle and it was like a battery pack deal that made the pin glow red hot...something like that a person would not even be able to see on a visual inspection without air or Hydro static pressure.
Many people use some glycol too in cold weather ..I am a fan of food colouring especially in Wirsbo .
An over pour , and ram set ties may be the next best thing to do as a fix.

Use plenty of Acyrilic ,... fiber mesh may be the ticket too.
Weezbo.

j a_2

After giving us not a lot of info to go on, your basic question was who’s at fault, correct?….No idea who’s at fault, till we know whats at fault…Give us as much detail you can about the layout of this project…I have not seen it but they tell me animals eat thru pex…As far as it not being tested correctly, there is no excuse. In my opinion the installers should be on site for the pour, but then again you seemed to have a very active roll in the project…Again, but not saying it happened, some customers will hire out parts of the job, that he is not comfortable with of have tools for…I never did that ,not to say is wrong,
We can try to help a bit more but plz. pass out all the info you have…Do you have left over pex, if so test that,that will tell you if for some reason there was a manf. defect..The only time I like pex is when you can’t see it..

MikeG

A friend of mine put 5/8" uponor pex in a 150'x80' farm shop with office, bath and kitchen. Couldn't tell you how many zones or loops. Used a 1" rolled out insulation, then 6"x6" wire mats, tied the pex to the mats. Then they came in with rebar set on chairs. These guys walked all ove the pex, dropped the rebar etc. They had constant air pressure test during all phases. Poured the concrete with out a problem. I cringed when I saw them dropping the rebar. They didn't wheel the concrete all pumped. In this case the pex is basically on the bottom. I have seen some issues where it was tied to rolled wire mesh, which was pulled up during the pour. This can cause an issue of uneven wire and pex placement if it's saw cut. I had this issue with just a regular concrete driveway slab. The rolled mesh doesnt lay flat and it gets pulled up unevenly.

Ironman

If I understand your posts correctly, you have never had air pressure on the loops. Correct? If so, go back and use air pressure on everything. Code requires 100 psi, but you could use less to determine if it's leaking. If it holds - fine. If not, isolate each loop individually until you know which are leaking.

I have never heard of every loop leaking. In fact, I've never had any leak except for when a concrete man was extremely careless with the finishing machine and I've literally put miles and miles in.

If every loop truly is leaking, then I would agree that sabotage is the most likely cause. That, or extreme neglegance in setting the tubing and sawing the floor.

Did you sleeve the tubing at every concrete joint? If not, then frost heaving could cause the tube to be torn.

icesailor

As far as testing for leaks, "F" the water. Use air. ONLY AIR!!!!. You can listen for the hiss of an air leak and not have to sop up water. A stethoscope is a wonderful thing. A piece of wood from floor to ear works well too.

Two things. Wire ties to tie the tubing to the mesh? Bad practice. You and your son went back and added some plastic zip ties. You were the smarter ones in the room

6" slab? A little thick. The PEX will float if it is only filled with air. The larger the diameter, the more buoyancy. A reason for lots of cable ties. If they were so short with wire ties, you were just trying to improve on something that didn't look proper. If the PEX isn't tied down with enough ties, it will float off the wire mesh. Then, the concrete placers are supposed to lift up the mesh with a concrete floor hook. You are supposed to pull the mesh up to the middle of the slab. If they aren't careful, and pull it up too high, and it doesn't settle back (because you have to pull it up higher than you need to) concrete can settle under the PEX and above the mesh. Its important to properly tie the mesh PEX to the mesh. Did they use a vibrator on the floor? That will help float up the PEX. That's what Vibration does. Makes the heavier aggregate drop and mix. And make air bubble/voids float up.

This sounds like a large garage pour if it is a big boy toy playroom. I would say that the concrete company is a low budget outfit. Most large pour jobs as big as a two garage use a concrete pump. Concrete Buggies are so 1950's. Because they drive down screeds and need a lot of brute strength labor. IMO, it doesn't matter if the wheels are rubber tires. there is tremendous weight on the PEX and the reinforcing wire.

Disconnect each and every circuit from the manifold and test them each with air. It doesn't take much. You may have some cut tubes, but they aren't ALL cut.

Someone F'ed Up, and they know it. No one will own up. These slabs are poured everywhere without a problem like this. Why did they cut saw kerfs in the slab? Expansion joints? That's not how they are commonly done. Expansion joint cracks are supposed to give the concrete a place to crack. Most concrete people decide where the concrete might crack and give the floor a place to crack with expansion joints.

Don't waste time and water testing with water. Air is the only way. Way back in the last century, I went to a demonstration on radiant floor tube. They showed this huge McMansion on the Island of Long where Vinnie the Heater laid the floor, and his cousin Al poured the concrete. Vinnie had installed a pressure gauge with about a 10" diameter face on the gauge and an electric alarm if the pressure dropped. So everyone on the job knew when and who was doing what to set the alarm off. The gauge was installed in the middle of a huge foyer so everyone had to walk past it.

You just can't be too careful.

Mark Eatherton

FWIW, the tubing RARELY ends up near the surface unless you have steel reinforcement there and are intentionally tying to the steel. On mesh that was set on 2" chairs, other than where the mesh crossed the chairs, the tubing ended up on the bottom. It is virtually impossible to keep it near the surface with 200 pound men walking all over it. Chris mentioned the use of hooks to pull the mesh up in the cement. When I asked the concrete guys pouring a 10,000 square foot snowmelt system if they'd pull the mesh up, they laughed at me. When I offered to pull it up for them during the pour, they threatened me with my life and promised to bury me in the concrete...

What happens in the books, rarely happens in the field.

As they first place the concrete, they walk on it. Then the jitter buggers walk out and jitterbug the cement. They too are walking on it. Then come the bull floaters, who although they use long extended poles up to 20' long, they too still walk on it. And if it is finished by hand, then they too are walking on top of the mesh with tubing on it, hence why it always ends up on the bottom of the slab. Being on the bottom of the slab can cause some response time issues, but if the space is maintained at a constant temperature, it's a non issue.

I have around 500,000 square feet of concrete out there with Uponor tubing in it and have not seen one inadvertent failure. There was always a readily identifiable reason or person connected with the failure (electricians, plumbers, mother nature).

As others have pointed out, mark the tubing for Supply and Return, disconnect them ALL, and individually air test each circuit. If they all do fail, then I'd consider abandonment and look up to the ceiling for radiant heat retrofit. Over pours can be done, but you will end up with trip hazards at every door, and a lot of cracking. Ceilings are faster to react when first started because you are not warming 6" of concrete. You are warming 5/8" sheet rock at best. If you don't plan on keep the shop at occupied conditions 24/7, then all that more reason to go radiant ceiling.

Oh, as others here will testify to, the floors are NOT cold when using a radiant ceilings, unless blocked by a large item, and even then, the surface below said large item will eventually even out with the surrounding surfaces. Tis the nature of radiant.

If only one circuit is abandoned, if you can't locate the leak using IR cameras and hot water (hotter the better) try running the floors with the balance of the circuits. It's still a lot more comfortable than any of the other alternatives. But to condemn all tubes based on pressure drop through a connected manifold, is not a wise decision.

jermann

here is a photo of the floor while pouring. The people were blurred

jermann

here is another view

wogpa67

When we do them in a pour I use ties like they gave them away for free. I've got miles of radiant and snowmelt at Longwood Gardens, and elsewhere. Never had a problem during the pour. Always later we want floor receptacles, or sparky forgot them. Then your back to repair it.

jermann

we put alot of metal ties and me and my sons went back and added zip ties. The wire ties are there but are hard to see in the photo

wogpa67

As said above test each loop individually before giving up on it.
Looks like you're tying into an existing boiler in your house? Or that is the plan.

jermann

yes that was the plan. we tested each loop individually and all loops a total of six leaked. Some worst then others.

mars_6

Ok so heres a dumb question how frikking much does that machine weigh loaded? Look at the deflection on the plywood that it is traversing over. If there were wire ties below that and there were enough deflection of the tubes i could see the tubes bieng cut by the wire ties. Just my 2 cents.

jermann

I don't know what the concrete buggy weighs when it is full. My concrete contractors says this is how he always does it. I did see him run off the edge of the plywood several times. But I don't know if thats what caused the damage

ChrisJ

Another heating option is Infrared heaters that hang from the ceiling. They will heat the floor very well as long as nothing is in the way

You can buy them in electric and gas.

Regarding Uponor pex, I agree with others. It's the best pex bar none.

wogpa67

Well as I believe ME said run hot water through each loop. You have the pics before the pour to know where they basically are located. Follow that loop with a thermal gun. When you get the big heat loss that's where your leak is. Cut up carefully repair and repeat.
Or as said radiant ceiling, Hot water unit heater, infrared tube heater.

jermann

that the reason I bought Uponor, but I don't get much support from them. Do you know if the infared heaters use much gas? My building is very well insulated. The only other problem is what to do with that darn insulated expensive line that I put into the garage

wogpa67

Well it's likely not Uponor's fault. They make the best product out.
In our business it flows uphill. Contractor, distributor, Man Rep and then to the Manufacturer.

wogpa67

If the manufacturer entertained every call from a consumer they would'nt even go into business. That's why you need to go through the process.

Harvey Ramer

There is another possibility for the failure. You had water in the tubing, and the garage wasn't heated, yes?

Pex tubing that lays on the bottom of a slab will freeze and burst during winter if heating is not active in the loops or in the space above. I have seen this very thing happen to a couple DIY's in the area. If this is the case, there is no recourse unless through your insurance.

SWEI

Those photos show ties which are roughly 4-8 feet apart. You need them more like 1-2 feet apart. The tubing could be literally anywhere in the pour at this point, unless something changed significantly between the time when those photos were taken and when the pour was finished.

Two other observations:

The mesh as shown will end up at the bottom of the pour.

The uninsulated CMU stem walls will leak heat like crazy, acting as an extension of the uninsulated slab edges. You will need foam (XPS like you have underneath would be great) on the outside of those walls from below grade to a point a few inches above the sill plates if you want that building to perform. The good news is that you can retrofit that.

SWEI

One other bit of good news: If you find that there are just a few leaks and need to patch them, Uponor EP couplings are cheap, and can be safely be embedded in concrete.

wogpa67

SWEI saidThose photos show ties which are roughly 4-8 feet apart.
That's what I saw as well. Along as the other insulation issues.

wogpa67

If you bring water, electric or gas you should have Ballards in that garage either way you go.

jermann

the ties that you see are zip ties. the metal ties are there but you can't see them in the photo. the pex was tied around every two feet. I had the cement blocks filled with foam by a insulation contractor

jermann

the plumber was having trouble with the seals in the legend manifold. The plumbing distribution supply told him to put around a cup of water in the system to help it to seal. I was not there that day so I really can't say how much water he might have put in the system. He told me about a cup??

jermann

what do you mean by Ballards

wogpa67

I see them they are every 6-7 on the mesh. I put them on every third.
What were the outdoor temps when before during and after the pour?

jermann

even with the very cold PA days. My garage is very well insulated,
the temp in the garage at the time we tried to fill the system never got below around 38 that I saw. and with the blocks being filled the hole way down to the footer.

jermann

we poured the floor last fall of 2014 the leaves were still on the trees and they were green not even colored yet

wogpa67

These

jermann

do `you mean like buried pipes on the outside of the garage going through the block wall and then coming through the floor in the inside

KC_Jones

Ok this might sound like a dumb question, but at this point why not?! What kind of shoes were those guys wearing when they poured the concrete?

jermann

no Question is dumb RUBBER BOOTS

jermann

thanks for your help guys.
Best Regards
Jermann