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ProPress vs Sweat

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  • Hilly
    Hilly Member Posts: 428
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    HotRod that virtual tour was pretty neat. Anyone else notice the Coke machine was out of orders?
    Sidenote, I use PP on a handful of jobs, have to say that I really loved using it and if I was still in the field fulltime I would own a tool. That's not to say that I won't eventually get myself one though.
  • jimg
    jimg Member Posts: 6
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    SWEI said:

    hot rod said:

    I've heard hydraulic lines on modern aircraft use some version of a press fitting?

    AFAIK http://reflok.com/ came out of the aircraft industry.
    Looks like Reflok is now out of business. http://www.coolingpost.com/world-news/mechanical-joint-company-reflok-closes/
  • SWEI
    SWEI Member Posts: 7,356
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    Bummer!
  • BigRob
    BigRob Member Posts: 322
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    I used pro press stuff for some work and it's fantastic, especially for large pipe. The consistency of seal far outweighs the negatives. That said, the tools are absurdly expensive no real reason, although prices are dropping.

    These fittings for refrigeration also look promising:

    http://www.rlspressfittings.com/

  • GW
    GW Member Posts: 4,731
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    We use both on boiler installs. Water heater jobs are press. I can solder as well as anyone on the planet.

    I don't understand why there are 'anti press' people. I will always have a press tool, the tools are priceless in many situations. Yes I got by before the press age, but let's be real. If someone can't afford it that's cool, maybe preface your opinions with that fact

    Soldering: i have the distinction amongst my employees of wiping the little mini drips away with my bare fingers (took years of practice, to kill off the nerve endings in my pointer finger tips).

    While we are jabbering about soldering vs press, may I please ask why some guys insist on smearing the wet solder ALL OVER THE PLACE? PLEASE! can't you please fill the joint up with solder and stop? And wipe the joint down after it sets?

    Ok now I'm on a roll. When soldering a vertical section why in the world do some people not solder lowest joint first and work their way up?

    Ok I'm going to go now, I've been a bad boy.
    Gary
    Gary Wilson
    Wilson Services, Inc
    Northampton, MA
    gary@wilsonph.com
    Paul S_3
  • GW
    GW Member Posts: 4,731
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    Ok you did learn about capillary attraction in your youth I suppose. Heat the bottom, get a little flow (don't fill it and get the drips going), then apply solder at top, paying attention to both top and bottom at the same time. When you see the bottom circumstance fill the edge stop applying solder, you are done, the joint can not and will not accept and more solder.

    This is good on 1/2 to 1. Bigger stuff I do tiny bit differently

    Yet so many people insist on applying more solder and then wiping said solder all over the place

    Ahh highacking a thread feels so nice. My.first time
    Gary Wilson
    Wilson Services, Inc
    Northampton, MA
    gary@wilsonph.com
  • Dave0176
    Dave0176 Member Posts: 1,177
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    I'll be sweating for while, not forking the cash over for propress yet. Outta my league.
    DL Mechanical LLC Heating, Cooling and Plumbing 732-266-5386
    NJ Master HVACR Lic# 4630
    Specializing in Steam Heating, Serving the residents of New Jersey
    https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/dl-mechanical-llc

    https://m.facebook.com/DL-Mechanical-LLC-315309995326627/?ref=content_filter

    I cannot force people to spend money, I can only suggest how to spend it wisely.......
  • GW
    GW Member Posts: 4,731
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    Yes most may know this but old rule of thumb is the diameter of the tube is how much length of solder you expect to use (per joint, not per fitting). If your soldering a 1" joint and you've got solder dripping when you're a half inch of solder into the process, it's time to stop becasue something is wrong (or, the person soldering is doing a horrible job).

    Your example, if you're jammed in a corner I would heat the back (where you can't see), then move the heat to the front. Then apply solder to the back, watching the solder as it gets gobbled up.

    If solder is flowing I don't need to see the entire joint.

    I also love the man that insists on building some bead around the joint, as if the rest of the joint doesn't matter. If the joint is filled you sure as heck don't need to be wasting time "building a bead".
    Gary Wilson
    Wilson Services, Inc
    Northampton, MA
    gary@wilsonph.com
    Paul S_3ChrisJ
  • happydave
    happydave Member Posts: 79
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    Right tool for the right place. If you're going to fight water for a hour press it. We press every big job over 11/4" and lots of 3 and 4" that would kill you on time.

    BigRob4JohnpipeHilly
  • Paul S_3
    Paul S_3 Member Posts: 1,261
    edited May 2016
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    Nice job @happydave ....the propress tool pays for it self after a few uses....i only use Viega fittings.....i solder here and there but 90% of my copper pipe work is press because of the time savings....i still braze refrig work though
    ASM Mechanical Company
    Located in Staten Island NY
    Servicing all 5 boroughs of NYC.
    347-692-4777
    ASMMECHANICALCORP@GMAIL.COM
    ASMHVACNYC.COM
    https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/asm-mechanical-company
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 15,858
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    Paul S said:

    Nice job @happydave ....the propress tool pays for it self after a few uses....i only use Viega fittings.....i solder here and there but 90% of my copper pipe work is press because of the time savings....i still braze refrig work though

    Please don't tell me there's propress fittings for refrigeration.
    Please don't...............
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
    Paul S_3hot_rod
  • Paul S_3
    Paul S_3 Member Posts: 1,261
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    Yes google Zoomlock by Parker @ChrisJ
    ASM Mechanical Company
    Located in Staten Island NY
    Servicing all 5 boroughs of NYC.
    347-692-4777
    ASMMECHANICALCORP@GMAIL.COM
    ASMHVACNYC.COM
    https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/asm-mechanical-company
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 15,858
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    Paul S said:

    Yes google Zoomlock by Parker @ChrisJ


    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
    kcoppPaul S_3
  • Solid_Fuel_Man
    Solid_Fuel_Man Member Posts: 2,646
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    I still believe that a 100% metal joint (solder/braze/welded) has and will stand the test of time. A rubber O ring tht is relied on to seal anything will be a failure point in time. Look at Victaulic, how many vic jobs do we see leaking after the 10 year mark?

    I was a mechanic for many years, and still hold my master's cert. Subaru was the main oil leaker for cars, majority of the gaskets were rubber, or some type of O rink variant. They never leaked when new, and they never leaked after a rebuild and went together faster than a gasketed engine. Less fussy about tolerance of mating surfaces for the rubber gakets too.......sound familiar yet?

    Give all of the joints that rely on a rubber type of seal some time and heat to dry out the polymers and we will see...

    OK I'm done now................
    Serving Northern Maine HVAC & Controls. I burn wood, it smells good!
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 15,858
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    I still believe that a 100% metal joint (solder/braze/welded) has and will stand the test of time. A rubber O ring tht is relied on to seal anything will be a failure point in time. Look at Victaulic, how many vic jobs do we see leaking after the 10 year mark?

    I was a mechanic for many years, and still hold my master's cert. Subaru was the main oil leaker for cars, majority of the gaskets were rubber, or some type of O rink variant. They never leaked when new, and they never leaked after a rebuild and went together faster than a gasketed engine. Less fussy about tolerance of mating surfaces for the rubber gakets too.......sound familiar yet?

    Give all of the joints that rely on a rubber type of seal some time and heat to dry out the polymers and we will see...

    OK I'm done now................

    It's not just that.
    I bet the copper can corrode up to and under the O ring over time also risking a leak. That will not happen with solder.
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • Hilly
    Hilly Member Posts: 428
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    null
    Do any of the press fitting companies have any water qaulity requirements to warranty the fittings? I have seen them printed for pex companies but never noticed with press before.
  • GW
    GW Member Posts: 4,731
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    I thought the o ring was a back up, a safety factor. I have no interest in trying a joint with the o ring pulled, but I'd bet a dollar and a donut it would hold pressure in a water piping job.

    When I was a wee helper the plumber guy that knew everything repiped an old basment. Well the dude forgot to solder a joint and he wasnt really excited that Lil helper boy pointed that fact out. The kicker was the water had already been turned on! If I didn't see it with my own eyes I frankly would never believe it, ever. But it was holding and not leaking.

    So, metal to metal if surfaces are good will hold pressure. Obviously a press machine is more secure than the old plumber guys forgetfulness back in the early 80s.
    Gary Wilson
    Wilson Services, Inc
    Northampton, MA
    gary@wilsonph.com
    ChrisJ
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 15,858
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    GW said:

    I thought the o ring was a back up, a safety factor. I have no interest in trying a joint with the o ring pulled, but I'd bet a dollar and a donut it would hold pressure in a water piping job.



    When I was a wee helper the plumber guy that knew everything repiped an old basment. Well the dude forgot to solder a joint and he wasnt really excited that Lil helper boy pointed that fact out. The kicker was the water had already been turned on! If I didn't see it with my own eyes I frankly would never believe it, ever. But it was holding and not leaking.



    So, metal to metal if surfaces are good will hold pressure. Obviously a press machine is more secure than the old plumber guys forgetfulness back in the early 80s.

    Of course metal to metal can seal, look at unions.
    But I don't think that's what's going on with propress.

    Would be interesting for a manufacturer to chime in on the subject. It's a shame that rarely happens. :(
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
    GWSolid_Fuel_Man
  • The Steam Whisperer
    The Steam Whisperer Member Posts: 1,218
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    If I remember correctly the press fittings are using the same rubber as quaility hot water heat pump gaskets. I'm sure we've all seen these gaskets leaking after 20 years or more of use. No propress for me!
    To learn more about this professional, click here to visit their ad in Find A Contractor.
    ChrisJ
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 22,352
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    I have tried several press fittings without the ring, no leak proof seal that I could create.

    Viega offers a choice of rings depending on the application.

    I think soldered joints are more at risk these days with the water quality changing, Flint is a good example of how that can happen.

    Aggressive water can leach solder and dezincify brass, maybe the polymer seal is the better choice.
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
  • Gordy
    Gordy Member Posts: 9,546
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    O rings can fail numerous ways. It will be interesting in the upcoming years/decades to see what transpires that the lab testing never covered.
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 15,858
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    hot rod said:

    I have tried several press fittings without the ring, no leak proof seal that I could create.

    Viega offers a choice of rings depending on the application.

    I think soldered joints are more at risk these days with the water quality changing, Flint is a good example of how that can happen.

    Aggressive water can leach solder and dezincify brass, maybe the polymer seal is the better choice.

    Ok you convinced me.
    I'll be brazing all of my joints using staysilv 15 from now on. :)
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
    Solid_Fuel_Man
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 22,352
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    The Victraulic rubber connection was developed around WW1 as a way to quickly get fuel and water to the troops.
    British Lieutenant Ernest Tribe and Dr. Henry Selby patented it in 1919.
    That is a pretty good time span to prove a product.

    I see Victraulic advertizing a steam rated seal now.

    With the requirement of fire permits in many areas, designers and installers are looking for other piping options. Grooving and rolling copper grooves may see a boost in sales, along with press and fusion weld PP-r.
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
  • GW
    GW Member Posts: 4,731
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    My souvenir for a job four or five years ago, a new boiler we installed. My no-longer-with-us past employee had a mountain of solder under this joint, it looked like.a pyramid. A classic example how many people that think they can solder really can't, or, are simply content of they can build the magic bead around the joint.
    Gary Wilson
    Wilson Services, Inc
    Northampton, MA
    gary@wilsonph.com
  • Gordy
    Gordy Member Posts: 9,546
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    Looks like there was no prep work for that socket. Last fitting?
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 15,858
    edited May 2016
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    Either no flux, or they burnt the flux. I doubt even water in the pipe would wash that much flux out at once...

    That's a bad bad bad mistake. You can tell when solder isn't flowing into the joint.

    And here, I do everything I can to make the amount of visible solder as little as possible. Here's an example of my joints. I don't wipe until the joint is cool and I only use a dry cloth. If I wiped while hot like a lot of guys I could have even less visible solder but I feel it's a bad practice.





    I'm sure there are many out there that can make cleaner looking joints than me, but I think I'm pretty decent for a DIYer.
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
    Paul S_3
  • GW
    GW Member Posts: 4,731
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    Gordy, the fitting has been sitting for years so it's not shiny anymore. I don't know what last fitting means. I don't know why the fitting got goofed but it had to be drilled and drained (boiler drain left some water in the pipe, this diameter bigger that bottom of boiler drain).
    Gary Wilson
    Wilson Services, Inc
    Northampton, MA
    gary@wilsonph.com
  • GW
    GW Member Posts: 4,731
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    Chris, looks good, are you wiping when the fitting is still hot? Looks like the Flux is setting in a bit. Very nice though.

    Another wonderful memory I have regarding soldering- when I was a young plumber, 20 years old, my boss at the time came out of his office as we were all getting back to the shop. He gruffly barked out, " Gary, gotta get back to so and so street, inspector shot you down; you forgot to solder the tub shower valve." I drove back to the new construction site and the inspector was kinda right....I forgot to smear solder all over the place but there certainly was solder in all the places that required solder.

    I can't recall what I told boss man when I saw him when I got back.

    To me, the less solder used the better and more professional. I'm not a spaz though, if I get a runner I try to fling it before it gets too far. If it's really a bad one ( or a highly visible, prominent area) i may sand it down afterwards and make it all nice

    Another peeve I have is guys cranking in a m ot fm adapter and then soldering after the fact, gross.
    Gary Wilson
    Wilson Services, Inc
    Northampton, MA
    gary@wilsonph.com
    HillyChrisJkcopp
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 15,858
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    GW said:

    Chris, looks good, are you wiping when the fitting is still hot? Looks like the Flux is setting in a bit. Very nice though.



    Another wonderful memory I have regarding soldering- when I was a young plumber, 20 years old, my boss at the time came out of his office as we were all getting back to the shop. He gruffly barked out, " Gary, gotta get back to so and so street, inspector shot you down; you forgot to solder the tub shower valve." I drove back to the new construction site and the inspector was kinda right....I forgot to smear solder all over the place but there certainly was solder in all the places that required solder.



    I can't recall what I told boss man when I saw him when I got back.



    To me, the less solder used the better and more professional. I'm not a spaz though, if I get a runner I try to fling it before it gets too far. If it's really a bad one ( or a highly visible, prominent area) i may sand it down afterwards and make it all nice



    Another peeve I have is guys cranking in a m ot fm adapter and then soldering after the fact, gross.

    I generally wait until it cools to wipe.
    I used to wipe hot with a wet rag, but I read that can cause fractures that will fail down the road.

    I'm using a petroleum based flux as well.
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • GW
    GW Member Posts: 4,731
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    Ahh, I wipe it hot, hotter the better (solder is set, not wet). If it cools the flux settles in. I use a dry rag too, wet seems to allow flux to burn in (yet I've never thought about it until now).

    If you're soldering an adapter and you don't want to sit around watching the paint dry, I would wipe it whIle still hot and then cool it (dunk it ot wet rag).

    Fractures, never heard of that one
    Gary Wilson
    Wilson Services, Inc
    Northampton, MA
    gary@wilsonph.com
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 15,858
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    GW said:

    Ahh, I wipe it hot, hotter the better (solder is set, not wet). If it cools the flux settles in. I use a dry rag too, wet seems to allow flux to burn in (yet I've never thought about it until now).



    If you're soldering an adapter and you don't want to sit around watching the paint dry, I would wipe it whIle still hot and then cool it (dunk it ot wet rag).



    Fractures, never heard of that one

    I need to run, but I believe it's in this thread

    http://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/141093/eatherton-flux-sponge
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • GW
    GW Member Posts: 4,731
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    Ahh didn't know the subject of soldering was thoroughly discussed. I buzzed through, good info indeed.
    Gary Wilson
    Wilson Services, Inc
    Northampton, MA
    gary@wilsonph.com
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 15,858
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    GW said:

    Ahh didn't know the subject of soldering was thoroughly discussed. I buzzed through, good info indeed.

    I used to always give a good wipe with a wet rag even before the solder set up. It was super easy to make a clean joint and it seemed to wash flux off faster.

    But after reading some things, I stopped.
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • Alan (California Radiant) Forbes
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    It's easy to solder, but tough to master. Even after all this time, I'm underwhelmed at my soldering skills.
    8.33 lbs./gal. x 60 min./hr. x 20°ΔT = 10,000 BTU's/hour

    Two btu per sq ft for degree difference for a slab
  • Tinman
    Tinman Member Posts: 2,808
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    @ChrisJ - The "Disagree" was completely inadvertent.

    Maybe Erin can make "Disagree"s available only with the caveat that they come with an explanation so that we can have some understanding whats being called in to disagreement and to avoid the fat finger hits?
    Steve Minnich
    ChrisJGW
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 15,858
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    @ChrisJ - The "Disagree" was completely inadvertent.

    Maybe Erin can make "Disagree"s available only with the caveat that they come with an explanation so that we can have some understanding whats being called in to disagreement and to avoid the fat finger hits?

    I've hit disagree a few times using my phone and swiping up and down.

    Should move Disagree to where LOL is and put Awesome in it's place. :)
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • GW
    GW Member Posts: 4,731
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    Alan, I have the utmost respect for the tv personality that does plumbing on rhe old house show. However, by chance, have you ever seen him solder? It goes to show the most seasoned professionals are sometimes a bit lacking in some areas. Be grateful for the things that you are awesome at doing. No one is top notch at everything. I hate toilet flappers! I haven't done plumbing service in years but my call backs on flappers helped me exit the plumbing part of the business.
    Gary Wilson
    Wilson Services, Inc
    Northampton, MA
    gary@wilsonph.com
    Gordy
  • Erin Holohan Haskell
    Erin Holohan Haskell Member, Moderator, Administrator Posts: 2,333
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    @Stephen Minnich and @ChrisJ, we can't change the order of the reaction buttons or add requirements for explanations. Thanks for the feedback, though. I'll share it with our developers.

    President
    HeatingHelp.com

  • Gordy
    Gordy Member Posts: 9,546
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    Some of us have sausage fingers Erin ;)
    Erin Holohan Haskell
  • Canucker
    Canucker Member Posts: 722
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    Gordy said:

    Some of us have sausage fingers Erin ;)

    What are you saying @Gordy? No watchmakers here?:)
    You can have it good, fast or cheap. Pick two
    Erin Holohan Haskell