Balancing my Heating system . Help .

misterheat

hi all, so its been cold for 3 days straight and ive noticed im down alot more water in the site glass . Im a little fuzzy on STEAM THEORY . So why do i go through more water on colder days ? I have ruled out leaks . How much does 2 inches represent on the site glass ?Do different levels in the boiler make the boiler act differently ? i usually keep the site glass half way .

Fred

2" on that Burnham could represent a good 2 gallons, maybe a little more. You say you have ruled out a leak but something is leaking or steaming away. That water has to be going somewhere. I think you said the boiler was installed in 1990 which makes it about 25 years old. Are you sure there isn't a crack or hole in the top of that boiler block? Do you notice a lot of steam going out of the chimney when the boiler is running? Something isn't right.

misterheat

This is a new boiler installed 1 1/2 year ago . I have looked at the chimney since i have become aware of things and dont see any white smoke at all. So def no boiler cracks . during the cycle the water converts to steam once the steam is up it travels thru pipes to rads. Does the condensate take a while to go back to water and travel back or do i have a build up of water somewhere . the pitches are all very good with exception of one run which i dont hear any knocking and the steam is heating the 3 rads on that side well

misterheat

I think my question is as it is very cold (10 degrees for a few days )is the condensate not making it back since it is running once an hour for about 25 minutes to maintain my 68 degrees
?

Captain Who

"So why do i go through more water on colder days ? "

Your boiler runs a higher duty cycle to keep the house warm and is making steam a higher percentage of the time, so more leakage. Also, when the radiators get heated all the way across, the vents close and you begin to make more pressure, even so much sometimes that the pressuretrol reaches the cut-out point. The higher the pressure, the more a radiator vent leaks (and main vents). They are just a bimetal spring or metal diaphragm where the closing force is a function mainly of temperature. The higher the pressure in the vent, the more opposition to that closing force and therefore leakage increases.

misterheat

i under stand duty cycle when its pertains to welding 50 % duty cycle means it runs 5 minutes out of a 10 minute period . So does it basically mean that the boiler is running longer in a set period of time to achieve the same 68 degree setting on the t-stat as warmer days . ( sorry if this seems like a silly question )

Captain Who

Yes. By the way, how have you ruled out leaks? They can be awful hard to find, especially in pipes that are inside walls and under the floor with no access from below. A small inspection mirror works well for finding steam leaks, because a jet of steam is usually invisible.

Fred

2 or more gallons of water in 3 days is not normal. Yes, on longer cycles/high pressures there will be a bit more evaporation but we are talking maybe a half a pint over 3 really cold days and run cycles of 25 to 30 minutes, not gallons. At the slightly higher pressures, something is leaking. It may be multiple small leaks at valves/pipe joints/vents and it may be steaming away, not obvious to you but that water is going somewhere.
Over a 30 minute off cycle, any water in the returns will make its way back to the boiler. Blocked returns will fill at some point and cause some water hammer. Those returns can only hold so much water. Slow returns may be an issue but they would be slow on warmer days as well so that doesn't seem likely to me.

misterheat

So i never knew that about the valve . SO when the rad is heated all the way across the valve close ? So the steam basically stops traveling into the rad once it closes ? I RARELY short cycle .

Fred

The valve does not close, the vent closes but the valve can leak around the stem.
Edited to add: Valves can leak...

misterheat

Visually i have checked around all rads while boiler is cycling . SO no leaks at valves . i have check all ,inside and around boiler . I have looked at all risers where they ascend and see no water so except for inside walls i see not a drop anywhere . no sheet rock staining any where either . Even though it is pitched correctly my gut is telling me the returns. Can rust create a blockage in return ? New boiler when installed was set at 4 on p-trol (thanks to my non steam plumber )

Fred

Check all the joints along the Main, especially any Falnge joints, if you have them (they are 2 flat circular plates that are bolted together with 4 to 6 bolts around the outside edge) They have a gasket in between them that can sometimes leak and the pipe gets hot enough that the water will subtly steam away.
If there are no leaks, water is hiding somewhere in the system and it will present itself at some point in the near future.

Captain Who

Use an inspection mirror. When the invisible jet of steam impinges upon a relatively cold mirror, it fogs it because the mirror is below the dewpoint of the steam, causing it to condense upon it. get one that has an extension feature and a pivoting mirror like this:

amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=mechanics+inspection+mirror

misterheat

ON a good note i have an appointment coming up with a good plumber that i found here ,Scullys plumbing . So im looking forward to furthering my knowledge by watching and asking questions . Money well spent !!!!

Fred

Great. He may be able to identify the issue with the missing water.

misterheat

hi guys , Quick question . Is this a feasible solution to add a vent at the end of my main . The picture below is the turn around back to the return. If i cut the small section of 2 inch pipe out at the end ,then unthread the 2 elbows than add a fitting with a tapping for the vent than add more pipe and and elbow back around to the return extending my main and return about 2 feet ? any repercussions from extending the main and return 2 feet ? thanks

Captain Who

If you cut out that 1 ft (?) section of nipple which is between the two Ells and replace it with a short nipple+Tee+longer nipple where the whole ****'y is the same length as the 1ft (?) section, I would think that would work just fine.

Abracadabra

Captain Who said:

If you cut out that 1 ft (?) section of nipple which is between the two Ells and replace it with a short nipple+Tee+longer nipple where the whole ****'y is the same length as the 1ft (?) section, I would think that would work just fine.

You'd need to throw in a union in there too, so depending on how long that section is, I'd probably do it that way if I had to. Be prepared to have to cut out the threads out of the elbow, or crack the elbows and install new ones. Lengthening the main shouldn't be a problem as long as you maintain proper pitch. If it was me working on it though, I'd weld a threadolet on the pipe there and be done with it.

Captain Who

@ Abracadabra - Yeah you're right. Where do you purchase 3/4 npt thread-o-lets that are curved to fit specific diameter iron pipes? Do you need to custom fabricate them?

Abracadabra

Captain Who said:

@ Abracadabra - Yeah you're right. Where do you purchase 3/4 npt thread-o-lets that are curved to fit specific diameter iron pipes? Do you need to custom fabricate them?

my local supply house. if you are in chicago, mid-lakes distributing or columbia pipe carries them. you can specify the run and outlet size on any threadolet. If you want to get creative, you can take a nipple and notch it something like this:

| |
\ _/

If your run is much larger than the nipple, you don't even need to miter anything. Should be able to fill any gaps with welding. Not sure if my ascii art gets the point across, but basically cut 2 miters on the end of the pipe and then cut the points off. Grind as necessary to fit your required run. I've done this on several occassions where we needed something quick and dirty. You aren't dealing with high pressures, so while a threadolet is nice, it's not really necessary.

Captain Who

Thanks. Got it.

misterheat

So ive never dissected old pipe . Because of rust they will be difficult ? WHat is a thread o let ? thanks

Abracadabra

misterheat said:

So ive never dissected old pipe . Because of rust they will be difficult ?

Yes... I'd be surprised if you'd be able to unthread them.

misterheat said:

WHat is a thread o let ? thanks

It is a fitting that allows you to weld in a threaded outlet to a pipe run.

misterheat

so basically you drill a hole and then weld this over the hole is that correct ?? cuz welding i can do !!! Where on the pipe would it go ? on the 2 inch pipe on the end of the main run ?

Abracadabra

misterheat said:

so basically you drill a hole and then weld this over the hole is that correct ?? cuz welding i can do !!! Where on the pipe would it go ? on the 2 inch pipe on the end of the main run ?

Yes. Make sure obviously that the hole you drill is at least the size of the weldolet.

Danny Scully

Don't start the party without us! Looking forward to meeting you.

misterheat

I wouldn't dare start without you. I'm brave but not that brave in the middle of winter. I'm looking forward as well. See you soon.

misterheat

I have a 1 inch tapping that is currently capped. There is only 1 radiator behind it . Would putting a vent in the tapping help or hurt the last radiator in the run ? I DO NOT have a short cycling problem. Just looking for ways to get the air out even quicker and the steam moving . thanks

nicholas bonham-carter

On a parallel flow system, I still like main vents on the end of the dry return, especially if there is more than one. They can be less "out of sight out of mind" there, and you can check whether one return is lagging in speed. It also seems to be the case that there is more likely to be a union at that end.--NBC

misterheat

Gorton's # 1 and #2 at the end of return. Probably sufficient???

misterheat

NEW QUESTION SAME THREAD . I have a radiator in my kitchen it is a sun rad . It is fed by 1 inch copper (i know this should be black pipe it was done a long time ago) . It is the last radiator off the main The copper piping is only aboout 6 feet long. It constantly doesnt heat up . i have tried a new valve many times and it works 4 or 5 cycles and then doesnt heat up . i have added a few gortons valves to my main last year . I dont think main venting is the problem . The minute i pull the new valve off during a heating cycle it heats right up ,like i said i have put on many new valves and this consistently happens no matter what what valve is on there ? thanks

Fred

Where is the valve on that radiator? Is it in a vertical position? Is that radiator pitched slightly so that water can drain out of it? Can you post a picture of that radiator?

misterheat

I cant post a picture at the moment but will later . I will look at the pitch . The valve is vertical and located on the last column of the radiator towards the top of the rad. Silly question .if there were water blocking would it heat right up once i pull the valve off ? thanks as always Fred !!

BobC

What size Gortons are you trying? Do you hear any signs of panting? The fact it heats right up when you remove the vent might indicate it needs a large capacity vent.

Bob

Fred

if there were water blocking would it heat right up once i pull the valve off ? Probably not but taking the vent off may decrease the resistance enough to let the steam push water back. I would think you'd hear some gurggling.

misterheat

Checked the pitch and it is definitely pitched towards the return. Instead of these vari valves that I've been using can I put a main style vent on this radiator? It is also the last rad on the main run and in a very cold room. Also there is a tapping at the IN side of the rad . I have my valve on the opposite side . What purpose would the tapping on that side serve thanks ?

BobC

You could put a fast ven on the input side and a slow vent on the output side. That would let you vent thee supply pipe fast but the radiator more slowly.

What kind of vents are on the other radiators?

Bob

misterheat

heat timer vari valve are on there . I had 3 new ones and tried a new one each week and each one had the same problem. worked for a day or 2 and then ice cold . when you say fast and slow you mean orifice size correct ?

BobC

The Heat Timers are so fast they make balancing a steam system tough. They also can produce too much condensate when used wide open. Even on low they vent faster than most vents.

I would start by turning them all down and see how that works. You should get main vents installed to handle most of the system venting, that will let you use reasonable sized radiator vents.

Bob

misterheat

i have a bunch of Gortons big and small vents on the main. They went in last year . My entire system heats up way faster with them, except this one rad. I think i will try your vent at either end of the rad idea . I have many vents to choose from since i started trying to balance my system .thanks