Balancing my Heating system . Help .

misterheat

It was put in ten years ago during a renovation . Its a small sun rad 27 inch wide 20 inch high by 5 inch thick and they piped in copper and used compression fitting instead of sweating it .I think copper because it is quick and easier . I had a stuck old vari valve on there and changed it last week with a new one . This radiator has worked for many years , But only recently ive been slowly lowering my pressuretrol which has help numerous problem . I was wondering did i just reach a low point of pressure where with the size reduction slows the steam down and it cant push the air out ?

Steve Nichols

Hope you all don't mind me chiming in on this. I have some experience with the Varivents as I used them on my in wall copper tube convectors to try to balance my system. Not a lot of options for straight up vents that were close to the wall cavity. There are a few things that I noted. When wide open they spit water as they are acting almost like an open pipe. The incoming rate of steam is pretty quick when compared to a typical vent. It can produce noise. It's tough to "tune these vents".

Another added bonus was since they are operated by a thermostatic disc/spring arrangement (If i recall correctly) when they cool off and the system is pulling vacuum, they can aggressively "pop" or open up causing a lot of noise. These buggers woke me up on more than one occasion and they were releasing in another room!

I got around this in a "kluge" sort of fashion by installing a hot water heater vacuum breaker on my main vent antlers. Yes, don't roll your eyes, temperature, plastic, etc. I get it. I was a rookie. It worked great, but since that time I've learned oh so much and have Vent rites on the convectors and Gortons on the mains. Boiler is still oversized (same as the original poster) but we're making it work.

All the varivents are not in a drawer in my basement....maybe time for Ebay....

Fred

Is the new vent the same size as the old one was? Are you sure the new vent isn't stuck closed? You can try a faster vent and see if that resolves the problem. If that's the only thing that changed, the problem is probably there.
Is this the last rad on the main or the furthest from the boiler? Lowering the pressuretrol shouldn't affect that radiator assumming your boiler doesn't reach the Cut-out Pressure. Does the boiler always short cycle?

misterheat

Boiler never short cycles . Only on cold cold days and big calls for heat it does cut out towards the very end of the call for heat. I also noted (i still have 0 to 30 guage) that this is the only time i see the gauge up at around 2 lbs . SO the pressuretrol seems to be working correctly . cuts out at 2 and in at .05 . this is not the last radiator either there are 3 more after it and all get hot 2 are 1/1/4 schedule 40 pipe and the very last rad is a copper run and gets hot . I will go get a vent tomorrow that is quality and has a big opening . i agree Steve about the vari vents .Starting to phase them out . thanks

misterheat

Hi all , so i went and bought another vent different style . i now understand why they used vary vents . Because of a molding clearance issue , the profile of the vari vent doesnt interfere with the molding and the round ones do. Be that as it may i pulled the molding and installed a "D" maid o mist vent . thats all my local supply carried . So it did heat up during a short call for heat but not real hot . So it probably was a a bad vari vent even though out of the box new . Also the y have this radiator recessed so that it is flush with the sheet rock. I wonder how much heat is going into the wall ? while investigating i did notice a slight drip coming from one of the elbows under the rad , like one of the sweats broke a tad. would this cause heat loss? thanks again

Fred

That's why copper and sweat joints aren't used above the water line on steam systems. The expansion and contraction will eventually break the joints loose. The leak will only get worse. When you have it fixed, fix it with threded black iron pipe. a small drip leak won't have a significant affect on heat but it will cause you to have to add more water to the boiler, which isn't good for the life of the boiler

misterheat

I hear that about the copper .When the time comes i will use threaded pipe and also move the radiator out of the wall a bit . The picture i attached is off a capped pipe. its been capped for probably 50 years or so ,is there a good way to prep taking that cap of as we prepare next week to put in a additional radiator . Is it ok to spray penetrating (liquid wrench or pb blaster) on it a few days before we try to remove ? thanks

j a_2

Copper

j a_2

Copper

vaporvac

misterheat said:

Also the y have this radiator recessed so that it is flush with the sheet rock. I wonder how much heat is going into the wall ?

@misterheat‌, I backed all my rads with reflecting foil and it made a huge difference. Some of it reflects in both directions. Even foil wrapped cardboard would help. Most of my larger rads had a huge piece of metal behind them originally which I kept.
A couple of years ago someone posted exterior pics with an IR camera showing the difference and it was amazing. Totally convinced me to finish doing this on all my rads. Colleen

Fred

misterheat said:

I hear that about the copper .When the time comes i will use threaded pipe and also move the radiator out of the wall a bit . The picture i attached is off a capped pipe. its been capped for probably 50 years or so ,is there a good way to prep taking that cap of as we prepare next week to put in a additional radiator . Is it ok to spray penetrating (liquid wrench or pb blaster) on it a few days before we try to remove ? thanks

You can use some PB Blaster but if that cap is on top of the pipe coming out of the floor, it isn't going to soak around the threads.
I wouldn't expect getting a 1" or 1.25" cap off is going to be too difficult with a couple good pipe wrenches.

misterheat

SO all this advice is really helping .thanks so much . I have one last radiator that hisses during a long call for heat . Does this mean the valve is the wrong size ? Also a slight hissing of the return main towards the end as well ? thanks

Fred

It most likely means you don't have enough venting on the Main and the radiator vent is having to handle the air in the radiator, the supply pipe and some of the air in the Main as well.
The hissing in the return main, is that at a vent or a leak? If at a vent, it is just another indication that there isn't enough venting capacity on that main to easily expel all the air.

misterheat

This is actually a separate run not off the 2 inch main . It comes out of the header pipe and feeds 3 radiators on the south side of the house . it comes off the header with 1 1/2 pipe .(probably should have been 2 inch at the least ) Up thread a bit there are pictures its the pipe that comes off the header and towards the back wall and then to the right of the boiler when you are looking at it .The hissing only happens during the long call for heat in the morning when we are going from 67 to 70 degrees. It takes the system about 30 minutes to achieve this . otherwise I never hear it on the return or the radiator . The hissing in the return is off of a vent a gortons # 1 . There have been suggestions on here to step it up . when I went to the local supply house all the guys behind the counter and one plumber where saying don't put in a number 2 . They said the air would vent to fast ????Now im thinking I should have . I will put a bigger vent on the radiator also . thanks for your time .

Fred

That 1-1/2 inch pipe is also a Main. It is a second Main that should have a vent after the last radiator run. The guys at the counter told you wrong! You want to vent Mains FAST and Radiators slow. Do not put a bigger vent on the radiator, put bigger vents on the Mains.
Also, if you are hearing the radiator noise AFTER a long run, if is probably not venting air but sucking air in as a result of a small vacuum after the boiler shuts down or short cycles. I explained that situation in another thread It is copied below. Bigger vents on the main might help but it may not and there isn't a lot that can be done about it. i have a similar situation on long runs too.
EDITED to add the following:The real issue he has (and one that I experience occassionally) is actually during a situation where the boiler short cycles on pressure as a result of a set back or , in my case, the outside temp and wind is minus 10 or lower.
During that short cycling, there is a small vacuum created at the radiator,when the boiler shuts down that is enough to pull those radiator vents open but not enough to pull the Main vents open and because the Mains are so hot, they vents really don't have a chance to breath during that 2 - 3 minutes before the boiler kicks back on and makes steam again which leaves any air that was sucked in to have to be expelled by the radiator vents that were pulled open and are now cool as a result of sucking that room temperature air in for a couple minutes.
He does need more main venting, no question but that won't fix this issue.

misterheat

That main leaves the header with 1 1/2 pipe and feeds 2 radiators which branch off to 1 1/4 pipe run to the 2 radiators . THEN the TEE that feeds the 2 nd radiator reduces to 1 1/4 and runs to the third radiator . So not sure how to add a vent to that . It basically ends in a radiator with a vent .the picutre below show where it leaves the boiler and feed the first 2 rads and then reduces to 1 1/4 and runs to the last rad . its hard to see the first rad run because its just out of the picture on the upper left side of the picture .Also holding a match in front of the hissing valve seems to be blowing at the match . would a vacuum do that ?

Fred

misterheat said:

Also holding a match in front of the hissing valve seems to be blowing at the match . would a vacuum do that ?

Depends, if there is a vacuum, as a result of short cycling (because the boiler has run long enough to build pressure or because you have a cyclegard water feed that interupts the cycle) you could, in fact have a small vacuum when the boiler is off and that vacuum opens the radiator vent and sucks air enough to cool the radiator vent then the boiler comess back on and the vent is open and pushes the air it sucked in back out. You really have to be in front of the radiator when the process starts till it finishes or you'll just catch it either sucking air or venting air.

misterheat

I work in a 110 year old Broadway theater and these 2 pictures are the radiators ( not sure if they are considered radiators) on the back wall hard to see but the knock like crazy . There is some old radiators in the archive section of the theater . I will get some pictures of the old steam stuff laying around . Some really old hand tooled steam radiators from 1900 ..more to come

Fred

If we could see the boiler and near boiler piping, that would be great! Getting rid of the knocking might be as simple as putting some pitch on those pipe manifolds (at the bottom of the radiators) towards the drip/return or steam inlet if they are 1 pipe.

misterheat

i went to my neighbors to pick up the 2 radiators he was getting rid of and saw this baby in his basement .

Fred

What a beauty!! I hope he keeps it until it it just can't go any longer.
BTW, You have two radiators from him now. If these will be in addition to what is already in your home, make sure your boiler has the Sq. Ft. of steam capacity to add that additional EDR.

misterheat

thanks Fred , it was 10 am when i went down to his basement and he told me it last ran at 6 am and it was still holding heat . i was amazed . 1917 he said . IM ONLY ADDING ONE radiator to my system but he had this AERO radiator that was 4 sections wide and about 12 inches high by 2 feet long and he commented that this was the hottest radiator in the house . So i took it also, didnt want to see it go in the garbage . It does need a new spud and valve but restoring this will be my summer project .. im learning EDR now and will evaluate what i currently have and what it will be after .. thanks very much

vaporvac

Can a boiler be cute cuz that's adorable! Why is he getting rid of the rads?

misterheat

He renovated his bathroom and want a new recessed rad for more room and he actually removed 1 from a small bedroom that over heats . its funny too because all of our house are the same about 20 of them all built around 1917 and ALL THE houses have the same problem with that small room . I have a maid o mist # 5 on that rad and it heats slowly ,its still a very hot room . I wonder if the "dead man " who sized these houses made an error ?

misterheat

HOw do i find out how many square feet my boiler is ? apparently after my new install last year the plumber took all the spec sheets with him . That plastic bag on the side of the boiler is empty .Its a Burnham IN 5 150000 btu

BobC

This will give you the information you need .

Bob

misterheat

thanks very much

Fred

Ther sshould be a metal plate mounted on the left side of the boiler (or maybe inside a panel that gives the specifics of the unit, including the Sq. Ft. of steam. I think the IN5 is 140000BTU, 115,000BTU Net.

misterheat

Thats what i thought as well Fred . there is a sticker behind the cover . i Will look again tonight when i get home from work ,but last i looked i swore it said 150.

vaporvac

The pdf says 358 sq ft.

misterheat

Sorry I wasnt clear. I was saying I thought the sticker said 150000 btus. I will look at the boiler sticker when I get home. 358 square feet of steam thx vv. I'm currently doing the math on my house to see how close my boiler is sized.

misterheat

Yes you are right 140000 BTUs . plumber kept saying 150000 to me. So I went from 130000 to 140000. I was originally told 130000 was undersized. I'm seriously doubting that now.QUESTION. I have one radiator that clinks after the call for heat is over. It is an occasion knock. I recently added a little shim , it had sunk in a bit . not a drastic pitch at all mabey. 3/16 . Is there water stuck in there ?

Fred

misterheat said:

Yes you are right 140000 BTUs . plumber kept saying 150000 to me. So I went from 130000 to 140000. I was originally told 130000 was undersized. I'm seriously doubting that now.QUESTION. I have one radiator that clinks after the call for heat is over. It is an occasion knock. I recently added a little shim , it had sunk in a bit . not a drastic pitch at all mabey. 3/16 . Is there water stuck in there ?

Is it really a Knock or just expansion/contraction?

nicholas bonham-carter

JStar that boiler has your name on it!--NBC

nicholas bonham-carter

Those theater radiators can be as silent as the audience, with a little TLC.
My guess is over pressure, caused by a plugged pigtail, and bad venting.--NBC

misterheat

I got my first natural gas bill since tweeking my heating system and pressuretrol and it seems to be about 22 dollars lower and fewer therms used compared to last year .( i realize there are many things involved with evaluating this ) But my goals is to always use less then the year before for a few months . It will be a few more months of evaluation to know whats up ,but its a good start . So after taking an interest in Steam i started asking the engineers at work questions about the Steam system (they take care of 17 Broadway theaters. ) the steam supply comes from the city they said and it was probably the ancient vents . Technically the theater owners are just landlords to the show that comes in . So they dont spend unless they have to. On this wednesday im going up to the archives o the theater and it was build in 1903 its an old apartment on top o the Lyceum theater . The Radiators in this office are some of the nicest most ornate Rads ive ever seen in my limited time appreciating steam. Ill get some pictures too . thanks again for all the help

misterheat

OK EDR QUESTION. I found a great chart to calculate EDR on the Smithfield plumbing site . I calculated all my radiators and it equal 257 EDR .here is the question. On the top right corner it says EDR x 1.25 boiler size ? do i times my total edr by 1.25 . 2nd part of question my boiler is 358 Square feet how oversized is my boiler ?chart below

KC_Jones

The boiler rating and the amount you calculated related directly to one another with no additional calculations. Most if not all manufacturers add in a "pick up factor" already so just go by that 358 number. In your case you are about 40% over sized. In the Burnham line the IN4 would have been a much closer match at 271. This is a common mistake that is seen all the time on this site. On a side note these calculations for sizing are so simple I can't for the life of me figure out why so many contractors keep over sizing the equipment...it truly boggles the mind. The exercise you are going through with balancing and venting is a good one. With the over sized condition the venting becomes even more critical for good operation of your system.

misterheat

Thx . the good news i think, is that i can add 2 radiators if i want to . Its funny the plumber came in and he said my old IN 4 was undersized OY!!! I'd be embarrassed to put my business sticker on the front of my boiler like they did . That chart i found makes it easy to calculate until i get the hang of it . I should thank him for the education i guess. I still have to figure out how to vent my main at the end . there are 2 plugged runs towards the run of the run with ONLY 1 RADIATOR BEHIND THEM . Its funny it dawned on me yesterday.( this house has been in my family for 60 years) the second to last run used to be a capped pipe that came up into a small bathroom that had a big vent (now it is plugged because of a renovation ) SO mabey that used to help vent the main ? thanks

misterheat

Here is the end of the main where it goes back into the return through 1 1/4 pipe . Vent where it is capped ? with that screw the last rad ?