considering putting a radiator in the basement

maybemark

Right now i do not have any radiators in the basement, the old boiler kicks off so much heat that it keeps the basement at 50 or above. With installing my new radiator, i won't have this heat. So, am considering putting in a radiator in the basement. I have a radiator down there not hooked up. Is there anything special i need to do, since the radiator will be on the floor and the main runs off my boiler on hanging off the ceiling. There is a radiator just above where I am thinking or putting the basement radiator where i do my laundry. Do i have to pipe something special, or need a larger pump. Remember, i am only 1 zone for my entire house.
Your suggestions and comments are always appreciated
happy new year
Mark

Harvey Ramer

Is the radiator going to be in close proximaty to the supply main?

maybemark

I have 2 supply mains running in my basement, so, the answer is yes, with in 10 feet, the mains are 2" iron pipe, not sure where he will be able to make a take off. The radiator upstairs is a new radiator from the kitchen remodeling i did 20 years ago.
He took it off a fitting at the end of the house, and the radiator is at the front of the house
the house is something like 70' long

maybemark

meant to say, the boiler is at the front of the house, not radiator

maybemark

Fred, my plumber is nervous working with this 90 year old pipe mains, afraid somthing might snap, that i will have to do major work to fix it

Harvey Ramer

Is the radiator at the boiler end of the house or at the other end?

maybemark

I looked downstairs just now. He removed the last 10' of iron pie, made it copper, so, at that point i imagine he can put a tee then go to the new radiator. It doesn't matter that the radiator is under the main?

maybemark

the boiler is in the front of the house, the radiator where i want to put it is in the rear of the house

maybemark

were you thinking another zone for just that one radiator?
alot of copper to do it

Harvey Ramer

There you go. Make sure to install a radiator valve so you can adjust the flow going to the rad. It is the closest to the boiler so depending what size pipe you run to it, it could have excess flow.

Adjust to your satisfaction.

maybemark

all my radiators have valves. My question, does it matter that the radiator is below the mains?

Jamie Hall

This is hot water? Short answer is no...

maybemark

yes, it's hot water, and thanks

Harvey Ramer

You posted while I was typing. So the rad will be at the other end of the house from the boiler?

No it doesn't. Increase your pipe size to the radiator to overcome buoyancy of the water wanting to go to the radiators on the first floor. Find a rad in the house that is close to the same size as the one you are putting in the basement. Check the pipe sizing for this rad and then pipe the one in the basement in the same size with copper piping. The copper will have less flow restriction than the steel piping of the same size. Keep 90deg fittings to a minimum.

How tightly do you want the temp controlled in the basement?

maybemark

I don't understand the question, how tightly do i want the temp controled?
I just want it comfortable, it doesn't have to be like the rest of the house of 68 degrees

maybemark

all of the branches in the house are with 1" pipe to the radiator, 20 years ago, Fred moved radiators and added 2 more radiators, his branches are only 3/4" copper. I can still bring down 1" copper to the basement radiator, if you feel this is best

Harvey Ramer

That's all I was asking. If you just want some heat down there and aren't overly concerned with maintaining a strict set point temp, you should be fine to just pipe it in and be done with it.

maybemark

ok, thanks harvey

SWEI

Assuming you can push enough water through it, a radiator (or several parallel fun-tubes) in series with a return line can be just the ticket. It will underheat (based on ratings) the space, but reduce the return temp (which raises the mod/con's efficiency.)

j a_2

You will need a low water cutoff installed at the boiler….What type of piping do you have Is a mono flow system and if it is the diverter tees are installed differently, for a radiator, below the loop…Lots of options but , don’t know what type of system you have…so I can’t be sure what to tell you…post some pics.

j a_2

Just saw you said 2 in mains…so not a typical mono flow….Post some pics….

Gordy

SWEI said:

Assuming you can push enough water through it, a radiator (or several parallel fun-tubes) in series with a return line can be just the ticket. It will underheat (based on ratings) the space, but reduce the return temp (which raises the mod/con's efficiency.)

I like it a dump emitter to an area that has purpose, and benefits efficiency at the boiler.

Gordy

Ja,

The OP has several threads, Mark is installing a mod/con on his forced gravity hot water system.

j a_2

Oh Thanks, I was thinking I was missing something…Somehow it was not making sense….Hope it all works out for him...

maybemark

the gravity system was converted a long time ago to using a pump.
Now I am a little confused.
I guess not everyone read what i am doing, and the conditions in my house.
Gordy, thanks for helping out with an explaination.
Will i need to do something special, or can i just branch off my main to the radiator?

maybemark

I'm sorry everyone, i am confused, because i did not give up themake up of my house, what I am putting in. So, or course, people who have not read my other posts, wouldn't know.
I live in a 90 - 100 years old house, 12" of masonrey, did a heat loss and found i am around I forgot, if it's 73k or 76 k. My plumber (Fred) will be installin a whn085 on my old gravity system that has been a pump system for decades.
- At the moment, I have an unheated basement, I was thinking of putting a radiator in my laundry area, just to make it bearable down there, since i won't be getting the heat off the old 35 year old boiler and the uninsulated pipes. I went ahead and insulted the suppy pipe now.
- I won't be doing this project until spring, but was trying to get as much information as possible to make this project run smooth.
- Fred, my plumber is an excelant plumber, but, ha's only put a handful of mod/con systems in. With all you people helping me with suggestion (that i truly appreciate) I can relay the message to Fred, do do it the way that the proffesionals explained to me.
- I hope this brings like to the people that don't know what is in my house, and what is going in my house.
- I thank all of your suggestionsand opinions
- Mark

maybemark

sorry
Gordey
what does OP stand for?

SWEI

maybemark said:

Will i need to do something special, or can i just branch off my main to the radiator?

To do what I proposed, you would pipe the radiator in series with one or more of the returns. You need to pay attention to head loss at the flow rate needed. IIRC you have two or three return lines coming back? If so, I'd put it on the circuit with the lowest head, layout permitting.

maybemark

SWEI
Please correct me if I'm wrong. Are you saying take the radiator from the 1st floor closest to the placement of the new radiator in the basement, take the return side of the 1st floor radiator and connect it to the radiator in the basement, then connect the other side of that radiator to the return main. What size copper would you suggest. The 1st floor radiator branch is 3/4" copper feeding it
thanks
mark

SWEI

That sounds like it.

How many GPM and what kind of head loss does the first floor have?

maybemark

SWEI
I am not a profession on hydrics at all, all I know is from the manual i read, and all the good people on this site
How do i determine GPM and head loss.
if this helps, I am using a 15/58 pump

maybemark

does head loss mean how many radiators I have, how much water? I also have a 2nd floor too. I did count the radiators. and length and number of sections, Is this what number you are asking me?

RobG

OP is original poster

SWEI

What is the heat loss calc for that loop/floor? How many square feet of EDR is installed there?

maybemark

heat loss is around 73k for 1st and 2nd floor
I have to find the paper with th st of radiators

SWEI

Need the heat loss for each loop (floor) in order to estimate this.

maybemark

oh, thanks Robert
I found the paper, but I do not know how to calculate the edr
sorry. I am a newbe trying to learn

maybemark

this is single zone, I have the 1st and 2nd floor seperated in tablet on the slant fin calculator

maybemark

I appreciate the help your giving me, I hope you can put up with the little knowlege I have to give you the answers you need

maybemark

1st floor is 51K total is 76k

SWEI

This covers the most common types and also explains the derating process for hot water at various temps.

Dan's book has (almost) everything listed.

To do this right, you look at the heat loss for each room (the area heated by a single radiator or a group of them) and then the square feet of EDR serving the area. Then you make a spreadsheet with all those values and start tinkering with water temps until you get the best fit. Remember that the temps shown on the chart are averages of supply and return. To get 150˚F you could supply at 160˚F and return at 140˚F (20˚F ΔT) or supply at 165˚F and return at 135˚F (30˚F ΔT.) Higher ΔT means less pumping costs and cooler return water, both of which increase overall system efficiency.