Wing nuts

BillButtrill

Just blowing off a little steam: I think wing nuts on toilet tanks should be against the code. Usually I can find a socket to fit the purpose but these two toilets yesterday (Aquasource) would not cooperate, AT ALL. Lucky for me it was a new install so I was able to get behind it with a pair of channel locks but on older installations the tool of last resort is usually a Sawzall. Just sayin'.

Jamie Hall

I hear you, good buddy...

icesailor

Those pricy toilets are specially made for the DIY market at HD, Lowe's and any other place where quality plumbing fixtures are sold. They usually put a brass wash on steel screws so it looks like high quality. When in fact, after 10 years, the bolts rust away and the tank falls off in the middle of the night when no one is home. You would just be amazed at the amount of water that can come through a second floor ceiling from a toilet tank.

Stunning.

jonny88

Wait Ice,are you saying Kohler et all make a different model for the home depots,does Milwaukee tools,do dewalt.I actually called Kohler and they refuted the idea but why is it every time I get a tool from there it doesnt last.I go to my plumbing supply for fixtures even though they cost more(i dont know why arent they the same as home depots).

ChrisJ

I'm a DIYer and this is how I do my toilets.

No wing nuts, no plated steel. That's almost all Wolverine Brass and the tank bolts, washers and nuts are solid brass. Even the flush handle is solid brass. The flushvalve is the only part I couldn't get in brass or copper, yet. The toilet is a Gerber Viper. I also have a Kohler which I hate.

I agree with Ice though and do Believe Kohler as well as other manufacturers make different models for Homer and Lowes. I went through this when I bought an Insinkerator disposal. The ones at Homer and Lowes were close, but not the same as the real McCoy and they both varied from eachother. Meaning the one at Lowes wasn't the same as the one at Homer and I think they do this so you can't get in a price war with them.

icesailor

Kohler Wellworth's are marketed to the lower paying/spending end of the market. If you buy a Cimarron at Homer's or Lowes, it will have all the better brass parts.

In reality, the Fluidmasters come in almost all toilets now, and they far outlast brass ones. And the cost just can't be beat.

The Cimarron's don't have holes in the tank so no leakies.

Mansfield's and Gerber's always have a place in the market. With their two hole tanks, they are a thing to behold. Most all of the manufactured homes I saw have Briggs or some equally nauseous toilet in them that will have the steel bolt rot through some time after installation. Especially for those who can't have a toilet in the bathroom without bleach tabs in the tanks. puckering up the flush valve flappers and eating out the rubber gaskets on the tank bolts.

ChrisJ

icesailor said:

Kohler Wellworth's are marketed to the lower paying/spending end of the market. If you buy a Cimarron at Homer's or Lowes, it will have all the better brass parts.

In reality, the Fluidmasters come in almost all toilets now, and they far outlast brass ones. And the cost just can't be beat.

The Cimarron's don't have holes in the tank so no leakies.

Mansfield's and Gerber's always have a place in the market. With their two hole tanks, they are a thing to behold. Most all of the manufactured homes I saw have Briggs or some equally nauseous toilet in them that will have the steel bolt rot through some time after installation. Especially for those who can't have a toilet in the bathroom without bleach tabs in the tanks. puckering up the flush valve flappers and eating out the rubber gaskets on the tank bolts.

I've replaced several Fluidmaster fill valves, including two in this house since 2011. One was old, the other must have been defective. Either way I had enough and went to what I consider to be the best. The house I grew up in had a brass ballcock from 1958 and it was still functioning fine in 2006.

I find it hard to believe that a $10 plastic fill valve will outlast a $60 brass one.

icesailor

Although we aren't supposed to discuss pricing here, I too always replaced plastic ball cocks with brass ones. Until I was paying over $40.00 for brass ones, and they weren't the old quality Wolverine Brass. I could buy 3 04 4 #400 Pro fluidmasters for the cost of a brass one. And it was old stock because no one was using them anymore. You don't need that nice expensive copper float and brass rod with a Fluidmaster. And many people who replace with brass Ballcocks, don't have the top of the ballcock out of the water. I don't think that the brass ballcock you are using is legal because it doesn't have an apparent back syphonage device on it. Under proper conditions, the after fill tube can syphon the water out of the tank. Fluidmasters won't do that. That's why Kohler went with Fluidmasters. They could buy them for less than they could manufacturer them and meet codes.

If you stick the after fill tube that far down the overflow, it will syphon through the after fill tube. That's why Fluidmaster has the fitting that provides the air gap on the top of the overflow.

The guy who was here with his freezing septic drain line could have that scenario. You can't fool mother nature. If the end of the after fill tube is below the water level in the tank, while inside the overflow tube, it can and will syphon. The ballcock will keep filling it

ChrisJ

icesailor said:

Although we aren't supposed to discuss pricing here, I too always replaced plastic ball cocks with brass ones. Until I was paying over $40.00 for brass ones, and they weren't the old quality Wolverine Brass. I could buy 3 04 4 #400 Pro fluidmasters for the cost of a brass one. And it was old stock because no one was using them anymore. You don't need that nice expensive copper float and brass rod with a Fluidmaster. And many people who replace with brass Ballcocks, don't have the top of the ballcock out of the water. I don't think that the brass ballcock you are using is legal because it doesn't have an apparent back syphonage device on it. Under proper conditions, the after fill tube can syphon the water out of the tank. Fluidmasters won't do that. That's why Kohler went with Fluidmasters. They could buy them for less than they could manufacturer them and meet codes.

If you stick the after fill tube that far down the overflow, it will syphon through the after fill tube. That's why Fluidmaster has the fitting that provides the air gap on the top of the overflow.

The guy who was here with his freezing septic drain line could have that scenario. You can't fool mother nature. If the end of the after fill tube is below the water level in the tank, while inside the overflow tube, it can and will syphon. The ballcock will keep filling it

Hi Ice,

The ballcocks I'm using were manufactured in 2013 and do have anti-siphon valves in them and are code.

RobG

You should cut the copper fill tube about a half inch above the overflow tube.

ChrisJ

RobG said:

You should cut the copper fill tube about a half inch above the overflow tube.

Hi RobG,

Why's that? I always try to get it to spray against the side of overflow tube as it makes it quieter. I'd assume that tube also must go through the anti-siphon, no?

RobG

If the fill tube is below the waterline it can siphon from the tank. By keeping an air gap at the overflow you are eliminating potential backflow. That's why all ballcocks have a clip to create an air gap. Since you have copper instead of the typical plastic tube, you can trim yours and not need the clip.

ChrisJ

@RobG‌ ,

Will do, thanks!

icesailor

@ChrisJ:

If the top of the ballcock becomes submerged in the tank, the vacuum breaker doesn't work. With the copper after fill tubes, you bend them so that there is an air break over the overflow tube.

That brass ballcock has a flow adjustment. Fluidmasters don't have any adjustments. You can change an original Fluidmaster that might had a plug in the after fill tube. The water can flow so fast that it will make some toilets continue to flush. USA flow requirements on toilets sold in the USA state that you can not change the flow characteristics of the toilet as approved. Most changes become modifications and make them illegal. Especially when the parts are aftermarket parts from Homer's or Lowered.

ChrisJ

icesailor said:

@ChrisJ:

If the top of the ballcock becomes submerged in the tank, the vacuum breaker doesn't work. With the copper after fill tubes, you bend them so that there is an air break over the overflow tube.

That brass ballcock has a flow adjustment. Fluidmasters don't have any adjustments. You can change an original Fluidmaster that might had a plug in the after fill tube. The water can flow so fast that it will make some toilets continue to flush. USA flow requirements on toilets sold in the USA state that you can not change the flow characteristics of the toilet as approved. Most changes become modifications and make them illegal. Especially when the parts are aftermarket parts from Homer's or Lowered.

Hi Ice,

Not aware of any flow adjustment on it nor did WB mention it in the instructions? My only guess at a flow adjustment is the set screw that you can adjust so the float won't go all the way down, but by fault it's not doing anything when you remove the unit from the package. These are used by a plumber friend of ours down in Florida which was the only way I could get them. WB does not sell to the public.

You are correct, the ballcock cannot be submerged as I had to modify one and extend it up higher to ensure it couldn't be submerged.

Homer, and Lowered, I have to remember that one.

I think we've gone off track here though.
The main point of my original post was I used solid brass tank hardware.

MikeL_2

Elevated levels of chlorine will destroy rubber gaskets, and, I have seen '' melted '' Fluidmaster ballcocks; usually due to an overdose of chlorine. Washing machine discharge hoses are usually connected with an '' air break ''. Ballcock refill tubes require an '' air gap '''..............

icesailor

The flow adjustment on the WB ballcock you show is the part, under the float linkage beside where the after fill tube leaves the ballcock. It used to have a slot in it that took a dime to turn.

That ballcock used to come in different lengths for different height tanks. Some Kohler "Wellworth" K-3500 toilets came with really high tanks for the extra power to flush 1.6 GPF toilets. They came with Fluidmaster ball cocks. If you needed to change a ballcock, no one carried the longer length ballcock and the top was submerged. And illegal. And there was no restriction in the afterfill tube. So, they used 3X the water to fill the tank than was used to flush the bowl with 1.6 GPF water.

Toto's are an even bigger issue. And American Standard is just hopeless. As always. Their Standard of ONE. Theirs and no one else's.

Charlie from wmass

I once did the same Ice. Then I hit several tanks that had no room for the float arm to clear the overflow pipe. I use Fluid Master Pro now. I also use those blasted stainless steel hoses for fixture supplies as I had way too many ferrules that would leak after about two days later when I was elbow deep in another job.

ChrisJ

Charlie from wmass said:

I once did the same Ice. Then I hit several tanks that had no room for the float arm to clear the overflow pipe. I use Fluid Master Pro now. I also use those blasted stainless steel hoses for fixture supplies as I had way too many ferrules that would leak after about two days later when I was elbow deep in another job.

Ugh,
Not the hoses too Charlie?

icesailor

On the Fluidmaster Pro's, they still pass way too much water out of the after fill tube. I always had a piece of #10 gauge insulated wire that I stuck inside the tube to slow it down.

As far as the ferrules, did you goop/grease up the tube and ferrule? I never ever had a leak on a ferrule. My old dead boss insisted on using Quaker State Water Pump Grease on everything. Traps, cleanouts, plugs. Almost better than Never-Seize. I do like the braided flex connectors. You can tighten them on the faucet with a strong set of fingers. No more dropping a basin wrench on your face. The rubber cone washer is nice on the plastic ballcocks that are longer than the old brass ones.

Charlie from wmass

No call backs, I can hold my head high. If I see a ferrule less than 20 years old I usually see the green ring showing it is leaking. I was buying the triple high priced valves and the American only supply tubes. STILL had 1 in 100 of them as callbacks. That is way too many for a one man should with a 200 mile service radius.

Charlie from wmass

Greased, dry, pipe dope ( that was my father's answer), and even silicone grease like you get for moen stems. The Fuid Master Pros I get have orifices you match to the toilet for bowl fill rates.

ChrisJ

Charlie from wmass said:

No call backs, I can hold my head high. If I see a ferrule less than 20 years old I usually see the green ring showing it is leaking. I was buying the triple high priced valves and the American only supply tubes. STILL had 1 in 100 of them as callbacks. That is way too many for a one man should with a 200 mile service radius.

It's amazing any hydraulic brake systems on cars even work then eh?

I've used ferrules on plumbing, fuel lines and brake lines on cars and rarely have had one leak and if it does it's still plenty loose to allow a little more tightening.

Just my experience in my little world. I realize what I do is tiny compared to the problems someone doing it for a business deals with.

icesailor

Probably most of the leakers were done by others. Not you.

I switched to braided. All the leaks on ferrules I saw were done by others.

Charlie from wmass said:

Greased, dry, pipe dope ( that was my father's answer), and even silicone grease like you get for moen stems. The Fuid Master Pros I get have orifices you match to the toilet for bowl fill rates.

Superlube Synthetic winch grease is as good as silicone grease that comes with Moen fittings. But it in a 2# tube or 9oz tube.

Also, tubes of Silicone dialectic grease available at auto supply houses.

Bowl Wax wax on PVC cleanout plugs. It doesn't gall and jam, and the water won't get by the threads.

Charlie from wmass

Ice I have no issues when I work on brake lines. I use only double flares there. I wish they just used flare fittings as the standard for supply tubes. There is a reason we can not use compression fittings for oil lines after all. Like I said 1 in 100 leaked. so most never did, just enough to bother me is all. They were also always with people who owed me the final check too. LOL

MikeL_2

I have switched to braided ss toilet supply connectors, but, buy them with a brass top nut. I have seen too many plastic nuts split / fracture.........

Randy-LeeBraman

Ahh yes the braided fill tubes are sweet until you get the DIY that tightens the tank end with a pair of pliers and cracks the plastic nut,guess they can't read,says right on it HAND TIGHTEN ONLY'
one job i was on the guy went out for dinner and was back in
3 hours came back to a flooded house,toilet on third floor,
$80,000 in damage.

MikeL_2

I also keep a supply of brass nuts for those times when a solid, premium finish supply tube is required. A plastic nut does not need to be over tightened to fail. Circumstances beyond our control ( ie unmaintained private water systems, or wild fluctuations of municipal water supply pressure ) can create instances of severe water hammer.................

ChrisJ

Randy-LeeBraman said:

Ahh yes the braided fill tubes are sweet until you get the DIY that tightens the tank end with a pair of pliers and cracks the plastic nut,guess they can't read,says right on it HAND TIGHTEN ONLY'
one job i was on the guy went out for dinner and was back in
3 hours came back to a flooded house,toilet on third floor,
$80,000 in damage.

Do you think that DIYer would've had a better chance using a ferrule?

Those can be over tightened too.

This is one of mine. You can't tell me this doesn't look 1000 times better than a braided hose. To this DIYer nothing looks as nice as a chrome riser. And of course more of the solid brass parts.

The PTFE tape is from whoever installed the hose that was there felt it needed tape on the threads. I just left it because I didn't feel like dealing with it and it didn't matter.

icesailor

Charlie from wmass said:

Ice I have no issues when I work on brake lines. I use only double flares there. I wish they just used flare fittings as the standard for supply tubes. There is a reason we can not use compression fittings for oil lines after all. Like I said 1 in 100 leaked. so most never did, just enough to bother me is all. They were also always with people who owed me the final check too. LOL

You're only supposed to use steel tubing on brake lines.

My old dead boss went up to NH and bought a auctioned, well used NH Highway Department dump truck with vacuum assisted Hydraulic Brakes. To tow his brand new trailer and John Deere Yellow Back Hoe. He wanted me to cut in an electric brake modulator into the brake system. Being Multi-talented, I was selected. He handed me a roll of copper tubing and some fittings. Knowing better, I lost my mind and a big fight ensued. "You CAN'T use copper on brake lines." Well, some NH yoho had already cut the steel lines out from ahead of the back axle to the back drums. After many "conferences". I borrowed a double flare tool and replaced all the lines with steel ones.

The truck was a true menace on the highway. A week or so later, he went out and bought a brand new Ford F700 dump truck, all set up to tow his trailer and sand.

Because I had refused to drive the Orange & Black NH Reject with copper brake lines, I never did ever get to drive the new Green Ford. He was like that sometimes.

ChrisJ

Many frown at copper on brake lines and I think there were huge issues with it at one point, but I don't remember when?

I was mistaken when I used brake lines as an example for ferrule use. Those are of course double flare.

However, as Hatterasguy said,
http://www.jegs.com/p/JEGS-Performance-Products/JEGS-NiCopp-Nickel-Copper-Brake-Lines/2111534/10002/-1

icesailor

Uhm, not the same copper product. I'm talking about Type "L" copper refrigeration tube.

Trust me. You are one of the very few that know that Copper/Nickel tube is available.

Quality European auto manufacturers (like BMW) use Stainless Steel exhaust on their cars. My 2001 BMW 325IX wagon got over 153,000 miles on the original exhaust system and that includes the muffler. It was still fine when I traded it in.

All my Ford Vans got about what the warrantee said. When mine would go, around 80,000 I bought a new factory original exhaust. The second one never wore out. When I got rid of the truck, the best part of the truck was the exhaust. One truck, when I replaced the exhaust system, Ford stopped making the old quality exhaust system. They put on one of those "aftermarket" Midas type exhausts and it was rotted and leaking before 30,000 miles.

Kind of like replacing 18 gauge galv. smoke pipe with 24 gauge.

Charlie from wmass

Dielectric corrosion