Leaky valve? Help

ChrisJ

Well, the proof is in the pudding, right?

Fred

SupplyHouse has 1-1/2 full port brass valves from $19.00 to $25.00. For crying out loud, why not do it right and to the Boiler manufacturer's specifications the first time and be done with it?

ChrisJ

Fred said:

SupplyHouse has 1-1/2 full port brass valves from $19.00 to $25.00. For crying out loud, why not do it right and to the Boiler manufacturer's specifications the first time and be done with it?

One of those ball valves is what I had go bad.
I don't knob if dirt and grime got in between the ball and nylon seal or what, but the chrome got scraped off of the ball and it started leaking.

I paid more for the brass plug and brass coupler though. Probably should have just kept the valve and used the plug I had. I hated having a "defective" valve on it though.

Fred

Chris is the only person on this site that I've heard have a problem. Quite possible he got a defective one. With a brass plug in the end of it, it is a moot point, really. If you wanted too, you could leave the valve off and put in a 1-1/2 nipple, a 1/1/2 inch coupling and a brass plug and get the same skim capability. It's just that the ball valve gives a little more convenience if you need to shut the port off quickly.

ChrisJ

Hatterasguy said:

I really like the benefit of connecting a hose and using the floor drain and skimming a bit faster than tradition. When you're just visiting, skimming with a bucket for five hours gets old very quickly.

Trust me, when you live here and you're doing it it gets old very quickly too.

I fell asleep one time and woke up to an overflowing bucket. Luckily it wasn't too long so the mess wasn't very big.

Fred

That's when that Ball valve comes in handy!

KC_Jones

Ok I have another comment. I always seem to notice the little details (probably a function of what I do for a living). Anyway because they didn't install the skim port pipe before installing the jacket there is now a huge knock out in the jacket that needed to come out to remove the cap and install that valve. That is just general sloppy work in my opinion. The big knockout was there if the boiler had the optional tankless heater option on water boilers only. I know it's not of the highest priority, but I always think that details like this speak loudly to the quality of work someone does. As they say the devil is in the details.

aboyd

thanks everybody! your input is more helpful than you know. i did skim for about 2 hrs through the hose and came back to fire it up. still saw about a 3 inch surge in sight glass but less oil burny kind of smell. could some of the surging be caused by my insufficient piping regardless of how much i skim?

aboyd

i also hear immediate hissing from the main vents when the surging starts

aboyd

i'm about an inch above the bottom of the sight glass right now and started at 3/4 of the way up. gerry can't get here soon enough!

KC_Jones

The hissing is most likely because you don't have enough venting on your system. When Gerry comes I am sure he will go through all of that with you.

BobC

Skimming through a 1/2 inch valve could take a very long time and may never really work because of the valves throat. An ope full bore pipe makes it much faster but it may take a half dozen skimming sessions to get all the oil out.

If your hearing the main valve hiss loadly you may need a bigger air valve and lower boiler pressure is always helpful.

Bob

KC_Jones

aboyd said:

i'm about an inch above the bottom of the sight glass right now and started at 3/4 of the way up. gerry can't get here soon enough!

I would guess you still have oil, but it could be the piping. The steam is being produced by your boiler at the rate it was designed to. That piping is choking down it's escape from the boiler. In order to get the volume of steam out that is being produced basically (putting it VERY simply) the velocity and pressure go up. You are probably getting crazy velocity out of that boiler. Since it's moving so fast it will suck the water right out of the top of the boiler and send it into your piping. It may seem hard to believe, but that's what happens. This is why pipe size and quantity is so important. It's about keeping velocity down low to produce dry steam. Remember when water changes state to steam it expands at a rate of 1700:1 and it needs a place to go and fast.

Fred

A couple hours of skimming isn't going to do the job for you. Part of the problem is still oil, a good portion is the inadequate venting, as KC says, and a good portion of the problem is header. I suspect you are sucking water right out of the boiler and into the piping. Did you ever measure the height of that header from the water line? I think the minimum is 24" but you have enough headroom that it could have been 30' to 40', given they didn't do a drop header. keep skimming. Make sure the Pressuretrol is set at .05PSI Cut-in and 1PSI differential.

Mark N

Aboyd, is the LWCO stopping the boiler while its firing and then is the water feeder feeding water? I will ask again because you report high water usage. Do you have any buried returns? Did the installer repair any leaks.

KC_Jones

Mark N said:

Aboyd, is the LWCO stopping the boiler while its firing and then is the water feeder feeding water? I will ask again because you report high water usage. Do you have any buried returns? Did the installer repair any leaks.

I think the installer didn't do a whole lot more then collect a check. I have a Weil of the same series just smaller and I can tell you when mine was surging from oils and foaming from the PH being a bit too high that thing will run right at the bottom of the sight glass and not trip the LWCO. If you read their manual and the plate for the sight glass instructions the sight glass basically has to be empty before it trips the LWCO. And yes I have tested my LWCO to make sure it worked. I will be very curious to hear where all the water is going on this install given the 10 gallon per day make up water they are seeing.

aboyd

the original leak was not in the system it was in the 2 right cells above the water line. there are no buried returns. current 2 1/2 inch header is 24" from the water line when the sight glass is half full. i'll post a pic of the old installation they tore out. i believe the cells failed due to corrosion from the T in the header being between the two risers to connect to a king valve above. but with that being said it was still running better than this new setup.

aboyd

i just cycled through to get the oxygen out of new water and no water was pulled through the lwco but it was very low in the sight glass and i doubt it would have stayed on through another cycle.

ChrisJ

If you go outside while it's firing do you see a lot of steam coming from the chimney?

A small amount is normal especially if it's cold or humid out.

aboyd

Original riser and header piping along with failed cells before new block.

ChrisJ

Wow,

That piping was wrong too! Looks like it was painted silver, that's not silver pipe.

Fred

aboyd, I know a lot of us are coming at you at the same time and it is probably a bit overwhelming. Don't stress out. The problem is no different now than it was when you first posted. It's just that the problems aren't going to go away until the header, piping, venting and skimming are complete. No one thing like skimming is going to make a noticable difference until the rest of the problems are also fixed. Hopefully Gerry will develop a plan of attack with you and get you up and running. In the meantime skim some more, but realize that you will need to do that again once the header is fixed. Fortunately, we had a mild day today and should have a couple more so you can minimize the use of the boiler for now. Use the boiler, to the extent that you can to knock the chill off the house until the 10th.

Mark N

That looks like a boiler that was rotted by the oxygen brought in by excessive feed water. You have to find out where the water is going. If you don't have buried returns it is leaking out somewhere else. Have you replaced those leaking main vents? Check the packing nuts on all the rad valves. Tighten them.

KC_Jones

I think Gerry could probably make a killing in Akron if he wanted to. Actually I have looked at almost every picture on his website (drooling many times) and I think he could probably put some people out of business given the quality of his work. Yeah that old install was jacked up too. Do you still have that king valve?! That thing is awesome and high dollar!

Fred

Old piping wasn't correct either but with that height of that header and the fact that it was 4" pipe, the problem wasn't exacerbated like it is now. looks like those risers may have been painted copper??? At least it looks like soldered seams. Hang in there.

KC_Jones

Looks like welded pipe to me. I am guessing the sliver paint was in an effort to cut down on the radiant energy coming off the pipes?

Jamie Hall

First place -- Gerry Gill is one of the very top half dozen in the country. I'm glad he's coming to check on your system.

Now a few other points. Simple question -- insulating the risers doesn't affect wet steam; if anything it makes it a little less of a problem. Too small a riser most assuredly does create wet steam, however.

Second. The amount of water loss you are reporting is, frankly, outrageous. To give you an idea of "reasonable", the system in the house museum for which I am building superintendent has used, not counting blowdowns of the LWCOs, just seven gallons in the past four years. The system, except for the boiler, is all original -- 84 years young. Somewhere in your system there is a major leak. It might be the boiler -- it has happened. it might be a return, although I would think that a puddle that size would be noticeable (try a 5 gallon bucket on the floor; it doesn't just vanish). It is remotely possible that there is a frankly disconnected steam line somewhere, although again I would think that that would be noticeable (if for no other reason that you would never build pressure in the system).

But enough -- eight gallons of water doesn't simply vanish, unless it is a leak into the firebox (look for steam coming out of the stack when the boiler is firing). It will be worth your time to find it...

aboyd

This is what the original installer company came and did today. They refused to replace the header to 4" and did "exactly" what the WM manual said. What do you think?

Mark N

Great they left you with a bullheaded tee! There should be a separate riser to each main. They got that right the first time, but now left you with a single riser and a bullheaded tee.

KC_Jones

Bullhead Tee above the king valve...it's still wrong. Those mains are supposed to be tied into the header separately not the way they have it. That is just a basic piping practice not even exclusive to a steam system.

KC_Jones

These guys have no clue what they are doing. Get Gerry in there! Seriously I wouldn't let them in the house again if it was my house. If you have to tell a "professional" what to do....well fill in anything you want after that.

KC_Jones

I just noticed something else...now I am not a gas expert, but that looks like a standard ball valve on the gas line. I didn't think that was acceptable? Perhaps someone else can comment on that because I am curious. Also did they say anything about the excessive water usage? Did they find a leak or an explanation for that?

KC_Jones

That's what I thought. They make things called gas cocks for a reason! That is just dangerous! Seriously do these guys get anything correct? To the OP was this permitted and inspected? I can't in a million years believe that gas line was inspected and passed?!

vaporvac

Unbelievable that they could take something bad and make it even worse. Every instruction/intallation manual that I've seen specifically says NOT to do a bull-headed T

KC_Jones

I was always taught it's a bad idea in general not just on steam systems. Anything flowing into the tee it's like hitting a brick wall.

Fred

Well, it looks like they did increase the header size, even though I would have wanted a 4" header. Is that a 3" header or just 2- 1/2" ? They did give you a second riser out of the boiler and skim port but they should have tied each of those mains into the header and that Bull Tee is a definite No-No. Please let Gerry come on the 10th and get the install right for you. I'm not sure if that valve on that riser is rated for steam. That should be double checked when Gerry gets there. As I said earlier, I wouldn't let those guys back in my house unless you are a gluten for punishment/stress.

Fred

This is, for all practical purposes a new install and the owner should not have to settle for the fact that he may be able to get by with it. It's not right to have a Bull Tee up there or to tie both mains into one riser. And it definitely isn't right to install a gas valve that isn't to code. If that is a 3" header, at least that is a minimum requirement met but it still needs to be fixed!

ChrisJ

If that's two 3" risers into a 3" header that's slightly better than WM calls for I think? It also looks like it has good pitch on it unless that's an illusion.

I agree a 4" or even 5" header would be better and the mains should be piped into it separately.

That said, how is it heating right now? Do you have any problems with the mains getting steam unevenly? What about the water loss issue?

aboyd

Just finished a 3 hour/10 gal skim. I was actually able to get the water feed in check prior to them coming back out with an overnight skim through the hose. So for the past few days it wasnt pulling water at all.

Gerry is still coming out. But all in all I'm assuming I may be in a little better shape than what I was before?

Here is another pic from underneath.

KC_Jones

Here is an analogy...again just my opinion. You say your house is 4800 sq ft. So lets say your house is a big old Cadillac that needed it's engine replaced. So you take it to the local mechanic and they say sure we can replace that engine. You show up to get your car back and something doesn't seem right so you open the hood and find they put the engine from a Yugo in your Cadillac. You take it back, and they say well the car moves doesn't it? So they pull the Yugo engine and install an engine from a Chevrolet. It's better than it was, but still doesn't have a Cadillac engine in it. So the question you have to ask yourself is do you want the proper engine to go with your house or not? Gerry will put the Cadillac engine in and won't fuss with you about doing it. As has been said already the manual has "minimum" specs. Minimum specs will never give you maximum performance or economy. I am on my second Weil Mclain (original went 32 years) boiler the original was piped to minimum specs, my new one I piped "over the top" and I can tell you it would have been cheap at twice the price with the way it runs now. There is a huge difference between minimum and maximum even though the difference may look subtle. Again just my $.02 worth.