Leaky valve? Help

KC_Jones

I would use it, obviously you need heat. I would turn the pressure down though. That could be part of the water usage problem with the leaky vent. That might even stop the vent from spewing water. You aren't going to kill the boiler in a couple weeks, but definitely want everything fixed as soon as possible. Hopefully Gerry can fit you into his schedule. BTW did you go to his website? He has a tons of pictures of his installs. I hope he can help you out.

Fred

That guy is a con artist, flat out. Don't buy into his attempt to reassure you. What he did was way wrong and you need to get back to as close to what the original piping was as possible.Turn the pressure down and use it to the extent you can until Gerry or someone he recommends can get to you. At a minimum, you need the pioe sizes recommed in the manual and two risers up from the boiler. Also I asked in an earlier post how high the header is above the water line. It looks low to me which will add to wet steam issues. The higher the header the better (and you have the headroom for a high one) or a drop header would be even better but I'm sure gerry will discuss those options with you.

KC_Jones

I was just looking at the pics again. Even if one riser was okay he didn't even do a proper swing joint?! So wrong in so many ways. I agree with Fred this company is a shyster.

ChrisJ

KC_Jones said:

I was just looking at the pics again. Even if one riser was okay he didn't even do a proper swing joint?! So wrong in so many ways. I agree with Fred this company is a shyster.

I don't think you need a swing joint for one riser.

KC_Jones

You are probably right, I could be remembering my manual incorrectly! I guess I am just so used to seeing so many quality installs. lol facepalm

aboyd

Called the plumbing office again. Told them i no longer wished to speak to the installer due to their stubbornness/ignorance to the issues i'm having. We will see. I will measure the header height.. i believe the manual states 24" header minimum from water line, not casing so i'm unsure if it meets to min. standard.

I did chech GWs website out. Pretty impressive. *fingers crossed*

aboyd

Gerry's coming over on 12/10! Suggested some Rhomar's steam boiler cleaner until then. Thank you all for your help!

Fred

That's great! Keep us posted on your progress. You won't be disappointed with him or any of his crew. I'm in Dayton and when my boiler goes (it's a 32 year old Burnham) I'm going to try to coax him to send a crew to Dayton to install a new one for me. I'm getting too old to tackle it by myself (I think).

KC_Jones

Definitely keep us posted!

aboyd

Ugh! came home last night around 11pm and turned the heat up a little to 67, within 2 hours the boiler pulled 5 gallons of water. Set it back down to 60 overnight and woke up 6 hours later to 3 more gallons fed. Where is the water going? Should i shut her down until installer company comes to install skim port?

Fred

Shut the boiler down for an hour and see if it overfills. If it does, the auto water feeder is probably seeing a low water situation with the water bounce and feeding water into the boiler. If that's the case, it has to be skimmed, a lot and soon. I don't think you have any returns under the floor so if you had a leak in the system you'd know it with that much water feeding into the boiler.

ChrisJ

Makes you wonder if his repairs to the block worked or not.
Even if the block is leaking you probably would never see water when it's hot because it's evaporating.

Fred

8 gallons in a few hours would be noticable. There would be a puddle on the floor around the boiler as it cooled down. He had the entire block replaced. I doubt it is leaking

KC_Jones

I just looked at your pics again you don't seem to have any underground returns, but I can't see everything. Do you have any pipes connected to they system that are run in the concrete? If not I would walk around the basement and look for any signs of water leakage. Do you possibly have a sump pump and perimeter drain? If the water gets into that it could mask the leak. I would do a little investigating if you can. Even though you have Gerry coming any information you can give him will get good. That is an unbelievable amount of water usage. I agree with Fred this would should be obvious. When mine started leaking I was taking on about a gallon every day and a half I was getting moist areas under the boiler but most was going up the chimney. I am guessing since you already had one boiler die this leak has been there for a while. Another mark against your installer for not fixing this. A leak should have been fixed before he even thought about bringing a new boiler in.

Fred

I don't think it is a leak, in the sense we think of a "leak'. The OP's original post was a complaint about water spewing from the main vents. I suspect that's where all the water is going, or it is setting somewhere in the system.

KC_Jones

That would be a lot of water to be laying in the system somewhere?! Still doesn't hurt to check for a leak. Of course who knows what that installer might have done on purpose to get callbacks?! I don't normally think the worst of people, but I have friends that have encountered things like this before.

aboyd

Talked with the VP of the installer company all day today while at my shop, he spent most of that time trying to convince me that my 2 blowdowns and drain port were the same as a slim valve, and that the installer flushing 9 gallons out and refilling was equivalent. He also told me 10 gallons was impossible and to continue to use the boiler overnight. Is he nuts?! No way I'm running it with so much waste and refill water. He claimed that the boiler was installed correctly (without seeing even a picture) after talked to a guy on the job. Thank you for posting the video earlier this week I learned a lot and have been reading none stop. It seems the reason my original boiler failed was the T in the header being between the headers (I'm assuming to line up to a preexisting king valve) so my question is this: I'm trying to be as prepared as possible for tomorrow's service call-- my original risers were silver, I'm assuming steel? If so what was/ is the advantage of this? Thank you in advance!

ChrisJ

Sounds like your original risers were galvanized steel.
If that's what they were there's no advantage or disadvantage really. Black iron is usually the pipe of choice for steam.

aboyd

So difficult to type all this on the phone. *skim ports and the original boiler had the T between the risers, not headers.

Also the original risers were wrapped in insulation-- does this affect "wet steam"?

BobC

Having the steam main connect between two boiler takeoffs guarantees you will have wet steam. The header has to be piped per the installation manual AT A MINIMUM (a drop header would be icing on the cake) and is HAS TO BE in threaded steel pipe. All of this should be insulated with 1" thick fiberglass pipe insulation along with all the piping you can reach in the basement.

The insulation is not a part of the install unless it's included in the quote; a lot of folks do this themselves.

Bob

KC_Jones

aboyd said:

He also told me 10 gallons was impossible and to continue to use the boiler overnight.

So he is calling you a liar? That would have been my first comment to that. I would also request that they stop treating you like an idiot, which is what it sounds like. Show them the manual and the part that says the warranty will be void if not followed. Look here:
http://www.weil-mclain.com/en/multimedia-library/pdf/weil-mclain-pdf/warranty/550141065_0314 - Cast Iron Gas Boiler Res Warranty (EGH).pdf
page 2 section F(3) show them that. Also show them what Chris posted and see how much double talk they come up with to get out of that. Then ask why it is using so much water, why they didn't find a leak. If you ask them enough questions you may back them into a corner and get somewhere, but to be honest again I would cut my losses and get Gerry in there. He is going to do it right without a fight. You are going to pay for it, but in all likely hood when it's done you will probably end up spending the same amount as having a proper job the first time around. Good luck to you!

ChrisJ

This is from Burnham's IN series of boiler's manual. Though it's not the same brand it's the same style boiler. As far as I'm concerned the same instructions apply to both though you may have a hard time convincing your installer of this as he seems to always know better.

Burnham is claiming no more than 4 gallons PER YEAR for your size boiler and if you use more than this good luck getting a warranty replacement with them.

Read the text on the right side and you will find WM makes a similar statement somewhere in their manual. Either way 10 gallons a day is a guaranteed failure and it will be coming out of your pocket.

KC_Jones

To add to what Chris is saying, the amount they are referring to is for a 10 year warranty. So even with that amount of usage you might kill the boiler at year 12?! No on can say for sure, but the manufacturer is only worried about the warranty. Beyond that again you are on your own. It is not uncommon for these boilers to go 30-40 years with even minimal care as long as the water usage is kept down. The more you post the more I think these people really have zero idea what they are doing.

ChrisJ

The previous owner of this house rotted two blocks in 8 years. The first one in 3 years and the second one in 5 years.

And I can assure you the boiler was not leaking 10 gallons a day. Maybe 2 gallons but not 10.

RobG

You should direct the owner to this thread so he can hear what others think about his installers work.

ChrisJ

What do others think of the work his company is providing so far?

I can sum that up.

Yes, please direct the owner of the company to this thread.

Fred

aboyd, I have a 31 year old (soon to be 32 years old) Burnham, about the size of yours, maybe a little larger (866 square feet). I use about a quart of water a month, due to evaporation. I don't even have to add water, I just blow it down and refill it back to the Normal water line. I know this because I do not have an auto water feeder on my boiler, I do it manually. It is not normal under any circumstance to use that much water. I'll be honest, I wouldn't want those guys back in my house. I'd lick my wounds and go where I know it will be done right. After a real pro made the corrections and documented them for me, I'd make my way to the courthouse if I felt it was worth the effort. It is winter and you can't afford to be without heat. That is the very first issue to address. As far as galvanized risers, most steamers will only use black iron. Something to do with galvanic reaction but trust me that didn't create this mess, they did. Stay in touch with us.

aboyd

haha. I will email this link to the owner definitely. Quick question, he installed a skim valve this morning. Thanks to all your information, the VP who was at my house this morning, said " Well, seems like you know more about steam heat than I do!"

I'll tell you this much. He pointed to the pressuretrols and said "Well that's your low water cut off, right now!" *facepalm*

But he's my question, when i hook up the skim hose from the valve and manual feed the water to a pencil-width stream-- should i see the oil that is skimmed or will it "appear" to be clear/grayish as it trickles down the drain?

Fred

Slow it down to even a bit less than pencil diameter. The slower the better, just a trickle. The idea is to eliminate any turbulance on the surface of the boiler water so that the oils stay on the surface and trickle out the skim port. The water color may range from a little off color to brown to black but rest assured the oils will skim off. It is most likely mixed back in the water as it travels down the hose and out the drain/bucket. It should skim foor several hours. I have even let mine skim overnight. Given the amount of pipe/boiler work you have had done, it will take more than one skim as more oil will return to the boiler. You will see improvement with each skim though. Be patient with that process.

Mark N

Were the leaks that caused the original boiler to rot out repaired? Obviously not, the water usage is still excessive. Are there underground returns. If so I would suspect they are leaking. Go to www.gwgillplumbingandheating.com. Take a look at his heating videos, especially the one on leaking underground returns.

KC_Jones

It is entirely possible you won't exactly "see" any oil. When I skimmed mine I kept waiting to see something. I saw some dirty water, but not the oil slick I was expecting. I then felt it with my hands in the water stream (my hands are like Asbestos) and I could feel a slickness to the water. The best way to tell is during operation. Removing the oil makes the boiler run much nicer. That being said with your messed up piping you might not even notice. Another thing to consider is that since you are going to get more pipe work done you will just have to skim after that again. The new pipe will put oil back into the system that will need skimmed off. If you want to skim it, that would be good practice for later. Another oil test that has been suggested is take a sample of the water and put it on your stove and boil it. Watch it's behavior if it boils vigorously with smaller bubbling you are probably good. If it is uneven with bigger bubbles exploding from the surface you still have oil. To get an idea put some water on your stove dump some cooking oil in it and boil. You will get a good idea of what is going on in your boiler when the oils are present and you can get an excellent visual as to why the oils are bad. Pressuretrol is a LWCO....now that's a new one!

aboyd

Here's what he did today. Can I skim with this?

nicholas bonham-carter

http://www.weil-mclain.com/en/assets/pdf/eg_boiler_manual_tcm47-17442.pdf


page 17 lists his omissions. there is a skim port location on both sides, so you don't have to be obscured by the LWCO. a full port, full size ball vale should be used for best results.--NBC

nicholas bonham-carter

page 25 gives explicit instructions for the skim port, and method.
as he will have to repipe the boiler, this is an easy fix.--NBC

Fred

You can, for the time being but he just isn't going to do you right. When you get a chance, go to a plumbing supply house and get yourself a 1-1/4 black steel pipe, a 1-1/4 full port ball valve and a 1-1/4 brass plug to put in the end of the ball valve when not in use. Take that valve and the bushing he put in that taping out and install the nipple, new ball valve and plug. This guy is just doing everything on the cheap. I don't know if you have kids or not, but if they should be in the basement and get inquisitive about that valve and open it when the boiler is running, it will be tragic.

ChrisJ

Fred, I'm not 100% sure but I thought the skim tapping in my WM EG-45 was 1.5" ?

That tiny valve he installed is almost worthless so thank him again for wasting your time.

Fred

It could be Chris. Seems like most of them are 1-1/4 but I'm not sure about WM. Aboyd, the best thing to do is look in the owners manual and see if you need 1-1/4 or 1-1/2 inch nipple and ball valve.

ChrisJ

I originally had a ball valve but ditched it because the ball got pitted up for some reason and started leaking.

My solution which may be stupid due to cost was a brass coupler and brass plug. It ended up costing more than a ball valve, but I know it won't fail and even though the plug makes it a moot point a bad valve on my system bothered me.

ChrisJ

Here is a video showing how I skim. You basically crack the feed valve and let the boiler fill very slowly. You can fire the burners a few times with the switch on the boiler so have your thermostat cranked way up. Don't let it get to the point it boils, but keep the water hot.

Do this for a few hours (yes, it's boring). I had two 5 gallon buckets I'd switch. I ended up filling around 5 buckets each skim 6 times. I skimmed and would wait a few weeks and skim again because oil kept showing up. Make sure you drain the gauge glass a few times to get that nice and clean each time as well.

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=10150591529896253&l=629707585283452060

ChrisJ

@hatterasguy, I feel bushing the skimmer down is never a good thing especially to that size. WM made it 1.5" for a reason.

Other brands use a garden hose type setup like Slantfin but I believe they have some kind of fancy skimmer setup inside the block like a troth.

I know that doesn't make sense for a slow skim, but I've been considering trying a fast skim as recommended by @jstar.