rerouted return plays havoc

tbyte

I am employed by a small real estate partnership. We have a townhouse in lower Manhattan (4 story + ground floor) that was built around 1845 with store/offices on the first two floors. The gas furnace (Weil McLain LGB-7 780,000 BTU) located below front sidewalk was replaced in 2006. There are two main risers, the front and rear. The system was originally two-pipe but with renovation most apartments are single and the pressure is presently set to seven lbs.
The system return line for the rear riser, located under the poured cement ground floor began leaking and to repair it, and not cause the new ground floor tenant major inconvenience, the plumber installed a new copper return along ceiling. When completed (Feb.2013) the rear apartments on floors 1+2 did not get heat. Summer 2013 the contractor relocated another section of the return line on the ground floor during renovation and radiators in the front began to leak water from the air valves despite new auto-feeder. The same contractor has since increased pressure to 7 lbs. which restored heat to 2nd flr. apartments (Jan.2014) and adjusted the auto feeder so that the radiators don’t spit. We finally had a heating contractor come in and he recommended a pump at the rear gooseneck where plumber looped the return to ceiling but we have yet to act on his advice.
The system had always banged badly especially at beginning of season and to heat the top floor the rest of the building was torrid. I have bought Mr. Holohan’s TLAoSH. We need independent advice if not a heating engineer to redesign that return. Enclosed are photos of boiler, near piping and new return. Thanks in advance, Jerry.

Jamie Hall

Oy.

To start out with, 7 pounds is way way too high a pressure. the Empire State building operates nicely on less than 2 -- so can you. Crank it down to 1.5 or so.

Second, on 7 pounds you have almost certainly trashed the vents; they should all be replaced now. You might consider replacing them with thermostatically controlled VENTS, which will allow the tenants a measure of control over the temperature in their spaces.

Third, you would be well advised to get a real steam heat guy in on this; I'd suggest Joe Starosielec, (JStar on the forum)(Thatcher Pluming & Heating in Metuchen -- 732.494.HELP) who, I know, works in 7our area) but there are others.

tbyte

Thanks for the reply. When they increased the pressure to 7lbs (from 6) it stopped the residential tenant's complaints and that was worth the price. Is there such a thing as an engineer specializing in steam heat. My employers are weighing the idea of switching to Con Ed steam. Of course that would not solve the problem.

BobC

When replacing a boiler it's important to keep the water line at the same height as the old one. The relation between the water line and the return is an important one as you now know. The pressure increase is probably to try and correct for the misplaced return.

I'll second Jamie's suggestion on getting a steam pro like Jstar to look at your problem. He is one of the best in the country.

Bob

nicholas bonham-carter

Another excellent choice would be JohnNY
http://gatewayplumbing.com
Do a search here using the two names, and you will see how well they communicate (from the threads they have posted), and get things done!
Jstar, and JohnNY
NBC

Jamie Hall

I'd temporarily forgotten JohnNY (sorry John...). He's excellent, too. And those two are the "engineers specializing in steam heat" you want to talk to.

As you say, switching to Con Ed isn't going to help a bit. Probably won't hurt much, either. Lowering your steam pressure and replacing your vents and fixing that miserable return kludge will help a lot. As well as saving much money, if that makes any difference...

tbyte

Thank you for the recommendations. That was my primary purpose in posting. The "miserable return kludge" satisfies my secondary purpose. Anyone care to comment on the proposed condensate pump at the base of the "kludge"? While I did not like the idea of foisting an appliance (that can also go wrong) on the tenant but if it worked it may be considerably less inconvenience to him then tearing open walls and ceilings.

RobG

You should really follow the advice above and call in a steam pro. Rarely does a system that used to work without it need a condensate tank. I have rarely met an engineer who I would let near a steam system. It really is a lost art. If you are interested in getting the system working as it should, call one of the contractors listed above.

Rob

Steve_210

If you solved one problem by increasing the pressure it is only
A band aid on a larger problem.
We do a lot of work on these systems downtown Manhattan
If you wish, we can speak on the phone.