cracked boiler due to pipe leak

dabrakeman

Woke up this morning to the sound of home fire alarms and a hot steam/smoke smell in the house and basement. Appears to me last night at some point a pipe in our system started leaking quickly draining our boiler.  There is water on the floor around the boiler (although it doesn't apear to be more than a bucket full or so to me.  Shut everything down now and thus have no heat.



2 questions:

1) Should I be looking for temporary fixes during the winter such as replace the bad pipe and try a tank sealant for the boiler, or, just expect full system replacement at this time?

2) We are in Howell, MI.  Any recommendations out there of a contractor who knows steam heat in this area that I can trust for a fair and proficient job?

gcp13

Steam heat or hot water?

What kind of heat do you have?

If it's hot water your pressure relief

Could have popped due to bad expansion

Tank or prv.

dabrakeman

Steam

It is a steam heat system. 

Weil McLain model E-9 series 2 (280000 input / 224000 output).  Don't know exact age.

Jamie Hall

Not a good spell of weather

to have that sort of thing happen.  Sorry about that...



First things first, and most important: did the low water cut off on your boiler shut things down before the boiler was emptied?  If so, there is a possibility that -- if it was a pipe leak and not a boiler leak -- the boiler may have survived.



If that is the case, then finding the pipe leak and fixing it may suffice at this time.



If, on the other hand, the leak or leaks is or are in the boiler, or if the boiler was still firing when the water level dropped too far, the boiler may have been damaged beyond repair.  The Hartford loop should have prevented that if it was a pipe leak -- that's what Hartford loops are for, after all -- but bad things do happen.



Tank sealant -- or any sealant type fix -- probably will not help for the boiler, if it is now leaking, and I can't recommend it.



Unfortunately, then, the bottom line is this: you need to find a good steam man to inspect the boiler and make sure that it isn't damaged.  If it is, I'm afraid you are going to need a new boiler.  While the good steam man is at it, he or she can examine the rest of the system and repair any pipe leaks.



I'm not sure who services the Howell area.  Might try looking under "Find a Contractor", checking by state.

dabrakeman

steam

Unfortunately it was the fire alarms and smell of something burning that woke us up this AM.  When I went to the basement the gage glass was empty and the burner was still firing.



To my discredit I had been fairly regularly blowing down the unit but not consistently while it was firing to actually test the shutoff.  Obviously the Hartford Loop and shutoff were not operating properly.  Auto water feed had also not been dependable for the last 10 years so I generally was manually filling (normally about mid winter or so the auto feed mysteriously would start working and I no longer had to do this...). 



With some water around the base of the boiler and the fact that it was firing low or dry I would be suprised if the water jacket were not cracked.  The pipe leak I know where that is.



Any idea how many ballpark digits we are usually talking for a boiler replacement and some semi-major piping work.  I don't believe there would ever be any minor piping work on a rusty old steam system...

Jamie Hall

Oh dear

Well, we don't usually talk pricing around here -- it's one of the rules -- but it isn't going to be cheap.



If it cheers you up any, steam mains and dry returns almost never need any work, so that is some rusty old piping you don't have to worry about.  Wet returns often leak, so they may need work.  Probably will.  It will be a good time to get the near boiler piping really done well, as well as putting in more valves and plugs and unions in the wet returns than you think you will ever need -- makes life simpler later.



Do try and find a really good steam man or woman to do the work; it will pay in the end.

dabrakeman

Oh well

Got 4 contractors coming out here between this morning and Saturday.  Only one with references on steam from someone I know.  Any tips on how to differentiate a good steam serviceman from a bad.  Any particulars I should watch for or watch out for? I will try to get references from them regarding anyone they have done major residential steam work for in the recent past.

nicholas bonham-carter

The good the bad, and the ugly

See if he measures the EDR of all your radiators, in order to find the correct replacement boiler. Don't listen to such words as, "sonny, I've been replacing steam boilers for 30 years, and I know.....etc."

There is a right way, and a wrong way, so look here in the library for the radiator sizing table. When you have that total in square feet, then look in the boiler specs, and you will find the square feet of steam EDR for each one, which can be matched as closely as possible.

Make sure he knows how to read the installation manual, to find the required piping sizes and layout.--NBC

conversiontime

rating the contractor

Steam is an system that requires a wholistic approach. So a good contractor will examine all aspects of the sytem, not just the boiler. This includes rads/vents, mains,/vents. boiler piping, returns, liner, etc. He or she will size the boiler based on rad/edr calcs and not just look at existing boiler specs. Finally a good steam installer will spend time post install getting the system dialed in (skimming, vent adjustment, etc.). Obviously ideals are rare in reality but anybody who knows steam should reflect the majority of what is listed above.



The contractor that looks at your boiler only and gives you a quote should be avoided as well as any contractor that answers your question "What are headers built of" (answer, black pipe) by saying "copper" should also be avoided. Might not leave much but those two are generally signs of a steam hack. Best of luck.

Joe V_2

tell us what part

of the world you are located. one of the pros on this board may be close to you.

dabrakeman

MI

Howell, (SE ) Michigan

dabrakeman

sizing

I am 0 for 4 on finding a contractor who will go around and check the system sizing based upon the current standing radiation load.  3 days with this weather and more to come I guess I will have to go with someone soon.



I have gone through the replacement boiler sizing chart availble through this forums library.  Seems pretty straightforward.  All but one of my radiators are old sytle column 7 3/8" wide.  One in a sunroom is a 5 tube.  Appropriate heights and sections calculated out to 641.8ft^2 of radiation X 240 steam conversion results in total BTUH Load of 154032.



Thus, my dilemna.  Current boiler is 280000BTU input (234000 output).  This would sugest that I am oversized.  3 of the guys are quoting 275000BTU boilers and the other 275000 with an option for 250000 ("if I want").



Most have just asked whether the house heats up quick enough (whatever that means to someone with no relative experience with steam heat but the one he currently lives with, nonetheless my answer would be yes).  They also ask whether the radiators tend to heat up all the way.  Answer, yes again where they are not manually shutoff.  I typicaly have almost 200 ft^2 of radiation turned off (upstairs bedrooms and the radiator in the room with the thermostat has been shutoff since I moved in 11 years ago).



The house is about 4000sqft with 11 1/2 foot ceilings built in 1890.  Not well insulated.  But, to my understanding this last part really doesn't matter much.  Boiler should match the load.  Would it be prudent to at least be asking about something in the 175-200000BTU range?



 

Zman

Supply House

I would speak with your local wholesaler. It never hurts to go in a speak to one of the senior salesmen. They should know which contractors you should be looking at. I would go in, not just call. You don't want a recommendation from the rookie counter guy.



Dan's books are entertaining and highly informative. They will help you pick a contractor now and make minor repairs down the road.



I do not see a "pick up factor" in your calculations.



Best of luck,

Carl

dabrakeman

pickup factor

Carl,

I used the sheet from the library below:

http://www.heatinghelp.com/files/posts/3688/Boiler%20Sizing%20Chart.pdf



A loss factor for the piping sure makes sense.  (probably should be part of the above sheet...).  Is it as simple as using the 1.33 multiplication factor or is there more to it.  I guess there would have to be some assumption for the lvel of insulation on the lines?

Double D

I don't see pickup factor either

Here are some boiler manuals. Compare them against your sq.ft. installed radiation. I agree with Zman, local wholesaler should be able to give a recommendation.

dabrakeman

Hartford Loop

In order for the boiler to have dry fired it seems three things would have had to fail: 

1. The low water shutoff system for the  burner,
2. the Hartford Loop and
3. the automatic water feed.

The water feed had a mind of its own so I can see that.  The low water shutoff I gues I can also see failing if float based.  Mecahnical systems fail if gummed up...

What I can't quite figure out and could use help understanding is what might have gone wrong with the Hartford Loop.  Could it have been plugged or something, or, is it likely just a matter of there being only so much water in the entire system and if the burners are continuing to fire and steam being produced and condesnate being lost from the broken line eventually you are going to run out of water anyway?



According to one guy who was here he claimed to have replaced the Hartford Loop himself about 20 years ago (boiler we understand to be between 40 and 50 years old.



I attached a couple photos of the boiler setup and Hartford Loop.  Anyone see anything seriously wrong with the setup?

Unknown

someone will

Someone will hate me for saying this.... don't get Dunkirk.. aka Junkirk..as we call it around these part, rebadged boiler for Bryant, Carrier, Sears, and many more...

Zman

OP

The boiler is a Weil McLain.

Not sure what Dunkirk has to do with it?

Carl

Unknown

weil mclain

That Weil Mclain is about 30 yrs old and been piped incorrectly since day one.. proved the rugged life of it. The new one, properly sized, piped correctly, maintained, will lasts longer..

Zman

OK

Thanks for clearing that up.

dabrakeman

piping configuration

Could you elaborate a bit for me regarding what you see as piped incorrectly?  I would like to know in case it applies to the new boiler (which of course should have all its own near boiler pipiing specifications).

 I have looked of course at the below link which is very informative.  However, this old Weil McLain obviously had only one riser, not two.  Do most today have two?  Should I be asking only for a boiler that has two?

http://www.heatinghelp.com/article/107/Steam-Heating/118/Steam-boiler-near-boiler-piping

Unknown

correct me..

That looks like a egh85 boiler.. which require two risers.. with the room you have, dbl drop header would be even better! Have you look into getting the ' steamy deal' books from this site?? Those books would put most HVAC companies into shame when you ask all the questions about the proper installation of steam boiler and system.

BobC

Go by the EDR

Matching the EDR to the boilers sq ft of steam usually works.



A boilers sq ft of steam rating includes a 33% pickup factor, in some situations you might need 50% pickup if there is absolutely no pipe insulation. Given the price of fuel it seems foolish not to insulate all the piping in the basement.



You also have to consider is a lot of these systems were calculated so they could heat the bedrooms with the windows cracked open for fresh air. If you have good windows, insulation in the attic and walls you will likely not need the radiators to heat up completely unless it is extremely cold out.



Bob

vaporvac

Thoughts?

Does anyone have any thoughts on this. I would have thought a combination of these safeties would have prevented such a thing happening in the first place. Very scary....should we all be adding EXTRA safeties?

dabrakeman

keep trying

If someone tells you "...get three quotes..." when it comes to steam, don't believe them.  You apparently need six.  Night and day when a real steam pro comes in.  Don't know if it against rules to mention names so I won't at this time.  Plus, the job is not done yet...

vaporvac

Share the love....

when it's all over. People are desperate to find good steam people and unfortunately not all of them advertise on this site all the time. (Unless that's not allowed).

P.S. Any thoughts anyone on my above query?

dabrakeman

piping

Anyone have any thoughts on this arrangement? Says i dont have room for a 2 riser setup. I guess the one riser is pretty tall and the loop doubled the header length, so maybe it could work out pretty well?

Unknown

theres

There's plenty of room for 2nd riser and a DROP header!!

ChrisJ

I agree

I agree with rjb, there is plenty of room especially with a drop header. I'm guessing that is an EG-65? If so it only requires a single 3" riser but personally I would do a minimum of two 2.5" risers and two 3" risers would be nice. I ran two 2" risers on my EG-45 but it's a significantly smaller boiler of the same style.





Also, are there two mains connected together before they connect to the header? That should also be made proper. Each main should connect into the header separately and don't settle for less. I'm only a homeowner and I could do it so there is no reason he isn't able to.

Techman

boiler leak

Can you determine where the water is coming from? Dry up the area around the boiler base ,start the system and watch. Use speedi dry or a hair dryer .Did any of the 4 contractors find the leak?