OK, we bought the house... now what? six year update.... we need some help

Jason_29

Three bedrooms, two baths, one tub one shower. I'll spray foam the roof to encapsulate the attic and insulate the basement and crawl spaces. Keeping the rads (as pictured) is the obvious choice. The plaster is perfect and i'd hate to mess it up. Also the prospect of stapling up all that pex is daunting to say the least.



There are two diverter tee loops (long) one for bedrooms and one for living space. Those zones seem perfect, so why mess with them. I'll need to add a third zone for basement flat panel rads. Basement is appx 1000 sqft.



So given that, and the fact that I have to stick with oil, what's the state of the art these days? We've had such great luck with the constant circ/trv/flat panel/modcon system (you all helped design) that I'd love to get as close as I can with this. No jet tub this time so we don't need the gargantuan indirect tank. Outdoor reset seems smart.



How about constant circ? Does a condensing boiler make sense? How about those fancy new variable speed circulators that were only just developed 7 years ago the last time I did this? Most companies last time snickered at me when I described what I wanted, so I'd like as much knowledge as possible when talking to bidders.



Thanks in advance,



Jason

Zman

Oil

You cannot do condensing with oil.

Is propane an option?

I would carefully consider any and all fuel sources.

www.eia.gov/neic/experts/heatcalc.xls

Carl

Jason_29

OK, if oil won't condense...

Is it worth the extra components and cost to set up a constant circ system? Will there be a comfort/savings benefit? Or should we just pipe each zone to it's own circulator and call it a day?



I don't mind the extra cost if it's more comfortable.



Also, every oil vs propane calculator I've used puts oil on top for cost, and I don't want to deal with a tank in the yard, so propane is off the table.



Thanks in advance,



Jason

Zman

Fuel

If you use the calculator, An oil boiler at $3.50/gal is equal to a condensing propane boiler at $2.65/gal. You can always use an underground tank. Is there a chance natural gas will be available in the future? Propane can be converted to gas for huge savings.



Anyway, it sounds like you are going with oil. Since oil burners cannot safely run at temps lower than 140 degrees, the constant circulation approach is not as desirable.



With an oil setup, you should probably go with a 3 zone basic setup.



Carl

Jason_29

mixing valve?

How about using a 3 or 4 way mixing valve as if I were doing radiant? Do people install radiant heat using oil boilers?



Jason

Zman

Mixing

Jason,

You certainly can mix the temp down for the radiators. Keep in mind you will not save energy like with a condensing boiler. If you run the radiators at lower temps they will emit less energy. Since the oil boiler cannot modulate, it will short cycle more intensely at the lower radiator temp. The system you are suggesting would work well with a properly sized buffer tank.An ECM circ would also be a good idea.



Carl

archibald tuttle

love those inset rads

whats the climate?



if you live in polar vortex territory, i would really wrap the house in 2 or 3" of foam and put new siding if you are gonna leave the interior like that because current design traps your water filled - assuming that is how you are going - radiators  virtually right against the outside wall. freezing risk is on you quicker.



you could use some reset since the controllers are so cheap these days but you ain't gonna get down to condensing temps as has been point out.



not sure i'd put propane underground myself. but i got two thousand gallon tanks i sunk into a hill without burying and landscaped around and you probably wouldn't need a farm that size.



 i'm a big proponent, although this year the difference between propane and oil has closed because they had a wet corn harvest.  so they used more propane to dry the corn so they could make ethanol to save propane . . . and that is pulling supplies from other markets that haven't seen prices this high in years, and it is still essentially an even bet with oil for me.



with expensive propane, the last thing i want to do is convince anybody else to convert to it, but i'm glad i did, so take what you want from that and leave the rest.



brian

archibald tuttle

BTE, on the jet tub

If you don't want to give up on tub and have some space you could set it up as an indoor hot tub and radiator.



i wrapped mine with pex using a flexible thinset mastic as bed and keep it 110 degrees and it's a great radiator.



just tossed a spa frog in it and figured out how to open the thing up and add a couple of bromine tabs now and again and seems to working like a charm.



i keep it covered with a piece of foam insulation and really get no whiff of it when it's not uncovered so i'm not really anticipating all my hardware rotting out and the bathroom walls crumbling or anything although i've only got two years on it so i can't give you emperical guarantee just yet, but i'm satisfied.

Harvey Ramer

Well, Times are changing.

Peerless has a new condensing oil boiler. NOT MODULATING but it is condensing and capable of a full outdoor reset curve. http://www.peerlessboilers.com/Products/ResidentialBoilers/PeerlessPinnacleOil/tabid/115/Default.aspx#dnn_relateddocuments



Jason. If you want a system with similar comfort performance to what you had before, here is my suggestion. Install a 3-way diverting TRV with remote sensing and control for each rad. It should be installed where the diverter tee is that currently is supplying the rad. Make sure the TRV has a high CV rating. They make some that way. You can tie all your current zone supplies together into one header and use a Delta P circ. Tie all your returns together the same way. Since the boiler condenses but doesn't modulate, you will need a properly sized buffer tank. You will want to control the buffer tank with ODR and WWSD. The boiler should be fired based on the target temp of the buffer tank +/- a generous differential. The Peerless Oil Boiler that I am describing has a 92% efficiency rating. With the proper control strategy it should do a good job.



Since you are already set up for oil this may be the best option.



Harvey



Edit,

A Delta P circ should not be used with this setup. An ECM variable flow circ should be used. Like the ecocirc Vario from B&G.

SWEI

Peerless Pinnacle

Interesting!



IOM shows concentric vent only.  Reasonable sizes for residential applications.  No floor on ODR temp, should really sing on high mass systems.  A perfect match for gravity conversions?

Zman

Well I'll Be.....

Harvey,

You must have gone to the AHR is New York. That is a great looking product.



Jason,

I would do it exactly like Harvey said.

Carl

Harvey Ramer

I didn't make it

to the AHR. Thos Sommerville just picked up the Peerless line. That's how I became aware. Needless to say I'm stoked about this boiler. It's a good option for a lot of people in my area.



I will say this though. In my opinion, this boiler is going to want to be handled in a certain way. I'm afraid amateurs that install this product are not going to have a very good time with it.



Harvey

Robert O'Brien

Condensing oil

Pinnacle has been around since 2005. In addition,QHT is importing the Firebird for the last couple years.

http://www.qhtinc.com/firebird-products/



Buderus discontinued the GB125BE but there are still some in wholesalers



We installed a Firebird last summer for an Oil Heat Cares project and it is quite nice!

icesailor

Ghosts In The Rooms:

Did you just buy that house or have you been living in it for a while?

If you have had it for a while, do you burn aromatic candles? It looks like you have serious "ghosting" from air passing through the radiators and in the corners and it looks like on the wall/ceilings

Or, do you have a nasty running oil burner that is leaking soot?

I'd be looking into that. Especially if you burn candles. Its not healthy.

archibald tuttle

good question icesailor

i believe he is saying they just bought the house and i noticed that although the plaster itself may be fine the finish was dingy.  tired decor (if classic rads), has the feel for a house that was occupied by someone for a long time and has been sold on without any reno.  so you get these classic rads but also gotta clean it up.



but your call on the concentrations of soot looking tracks over the radiator convection openings is right on.   i looked at it, but really looked right through it.



i still suspect climate and insulation have a good deal to do with whether it is worth trying to use a condensing boiler, oil or propane.



I'm sure you are gonna pay some serious bucks for that technology and i would spend money on the envelope before i spent it on a condensing boiler. depending on the access to piping and whether the basement will be finished when you install flat panel rads you might engage necessary piping before closing in or strategize for access.



 i'd insulate from the outside with precision and live in the house with the existing system for a heating season since you're going to keep the radiators anyway (correcting any fault if it is contributing to soot streaks in the home, of course) and figure out how well balanced it is.  you could add outdoor reset to the old system for a couple hundred bucks and see where that gets you after a season and then decide whether you want individual room management via TRV, buffer tank and finally condensing boiler which is really separate question.



color me cheap but i usually live it, figure what performance i need to heat the cold rooms and then only add control for the a couple hot spots.



If you go constant circ and aggressive reset and a lot of insulation you might be able to use condensing temps but on a house that size (sounds like 1000 sq. ft. footprint, is there a second floor, you talk about 2 existing zones, current finished space under 2000 sq. ft.?), unless you are into the tech (which it sound slike you are), i think the payback would be further off than you might have time for unless you're planning on staying for a couple generations - and even then . . .

Jason_29

A few clarifications... plus, HEAT PUMP?

Thanks so much for your feedback. We haven't moved into the house yet. The house is a single story brick ranch, built in 1961, with a central basement and two open crawlspaces, no insulation. It's located in the southwest corner of CT.



It is my understanding that the walls in the house have never been painted after the initial paint job, which would explain the soot on the walls near the rads. Also, the house has been unoccupied for 6 years, and unheated for 3 years. The heating system has been empty for that 3 years. In the meantime, they had a couple of feet of water in the basement which, I assume, covered the oil burner. That's why I figured we'd just scrap what's there and start over.



Which leads me to another question... after three years, the loops will probably be rusty right? Should they be flushed, and how, before connecting them to nice new equipment.



Like i mentioned, there are two diverter tee loops currently piped as one zone. We'll be finishing the basement in the future, so we'll need another zone for that. I really like the flat panel rads we use now, so I thought we'd use them again.



Am i trying to be too clever with the constant circ thing? should I just split the two zones, add a third for the basement, get a pretty efficient boiler and worry about something else (like the kitchen) And if I do leave it as is (after insulating the loop of course... the whole thing including a 50 foot return is in uninsulated vented crawlspace) are there fancy new circulators and controls the installer can use to tart it up a little and increase the efficiency?



Also, a new neighbor has solar panels and hasn't paid for electricity in two years. The whole length of the rear of the house faces south and would fit a butt load of panels. Is there a way to set this up to accommodate a heat pump at a later date?



Thanks again for your help,



Jason



ps: will I need a twenty-seven B stroke six if I have Mr. Tuttle do the work?

Jason_29

Update:Update: After three estimates each of which spec'd a Triangle Tube 225k propane mod con, we had one installed, using closely spaced tees (elbows?) and keeping the two zones using thermostats for each. After a couple of months, a check valve on one of the pumps clogged open. A year later, the expansion tank filled with rusty crap and the expansion overflow valve began to drip. The boiler is short cycling like crazy, and has from the beginning, with the installer telling me that's how it was supposed to work. It moans and rattles and is loud as hell as it fires up each time. I asked the installer specifically if crap in the system was going to be a problem and he said no.

In the meantime, I did a heat loss on the house and with the new windows and doors and spray foamed attic, it works out to 85k. I saw Rich T. on TOH a couple of seasons ago showing a modcon boiler with lots of water in it and large galleries that can be piped direct and is meant for old, rusty retrofits.

What do you think my next move might be? Replace the boiler with one much smaller or one like Rich T. demonstrated? An auxillary tank to minimize the short cycling?

My last house was beautifully designed and piped using european steel radiators and constant circ thermostats at each one. Bob B., a frequenter of this board installed it and it ran beautifully. Any ideas? Calling Bob B.?

Thanks in advance... I had the luxury of months to design the heat in my last house, but we needed to get this one done in a couple of weeks.

Jason

hot_rod

That boiler certainly should not need replacing?

Most all mod cons can be down fired, it is usually a setting in the control., Most mod cons are 7 or 10:1 turndown, you should be able to cut the boiler output in 1/2 or less, check the installation or control manual.
Still others have ramp delay functions which holds the boiler at low outputs for a set period of time, and slowly steps it up.
Was the system cleaned and flushed when installed? That goes a long way to assure good water quality.
Be sure there are no leaks and the boiler is constantly taking on fresh water.

Solid_Fuel_Man

I'm sorry you had a 225,000 btu/hr unit installed! 

I hate to ask, but with your very thoughtful considerations in the previous posts.... Why did you let that size of boiler get installed in a home with an 85K heatloss?

You should be able to throttle the boiler considerably which will help. Does it heat evenly otherwise? A dirtmag and some regular flushing of said dirtmag will greatly help protect the boiler. 

motoguy128

Get a dirt separator. 

Adjust the max firing as mentioned.  Not sure about Triangle Tube but the Naviens we install allow the max output to be limited.  

You also might increase water temp to increase radiator output.  Yes effecincy will go down but short cycling will stop.  

You can also increase the differential so the boiler overshoots some to cycle longer.  

Zman

Is all the piping new or is there some old steel pipe in the mix? How does the the water look?
Those fire tube heat exchangers can act like a giant dirt sep. It makes a mess of the boiler. If you hadn't mentioned the clogged valve, I would have thought the noise is coming from poor combustion. A clogged heat exchanger can also make that kind of noise.

mattmia2

Like others said, if that monoflo system is cast iron radiators it needs a good dirt separator. If the expansion tank was full of rust, the boiler probably is too, probably needs to be flushe and descaled along with the it sounds like missing dirtmag being added. Might be a strainer in the boiler that is plugged too.

HVACNUT

Bob B.= @Ironman?

mattmia2

HVACNUT said:

Bob B.= @Ironman?

If he is still in your area, he would be a great person to sort this out.

Jamie Hall

I can't think who Bob B. would be other than @Ironman , and if so, he's the one of the best in the business, and I don't think he's moved... or retired... yet.

Jason_29

B. Bona, lower fairfield county, CT. He did great work on my last house. I'll send pics tomorrow... Thanks for all of your responses

hot_rod

One Bob in VA, one Bob in CT Two different Bobs.

Jason_29

Jason_29

If more detailed pictures would be helpful, let me know and I'll head back down. Thanks again for your input, Jason

mattmia2

Another thing, read the installation manual and look at all the parameters that are available to tune it and to reduce short cycling. If it isn't set up to do outdoor reset, set it up for that and install the outdoor temp sensor. There are a number of settings to prevent short cycling and if the installer said that was normal, they probably did little if any setup of the parameters in the boiler.

Jason_29

The outdoor sensor is installed and the reset is activated. The boiler fires for literally 60 seconds before the target temp is reached then recycles. Domestic hot water, it fires up and runs full tilt until the demand is met.

The house is comfortable, with no significant temp swings... whatever the target temp is set at seems to get the ci rads convecting to heat the rooms. I miss the low temp, constant circ from the last house. I even had the installer mount trv's on the rads we had to remove to install the hardwood floors.

mattmia2

It looks like if nothing else you can set a "call blocking time" to let the system cool before it fires again so it will run a longer cycle. Does it run that short a cycle from a new call for heat or just within a call? The system may not be maintaining the minimum flow through the boiler if it is that short a cycle even after the system has cooled a while. Again, you need to make sure there is not a strainer that is part of the boiler that is clogged as well.