finished basement= trapped vent and cold radiator?

anastasialiving

i recently purchased and moved into a lovely 1918 home in new haven with steam heat, oil furnace.

an appealing bonus of the house? a semi-finished room in the basement. (or so i thought).

i found one radiator in my living room did not heat during inspection. i didnt think i needed to fuss with the seller about one radiator, so i never had it looked at before i closed. (oops)

now that i am in the house, and its getting colder i have tried to trouble shoot: i have tried opening/closing the radiator valve and changing the radiator vent, no luck.

when i had my oil company come for the initial boiler check, i asked about the non-working radiator, and he told me that he could only find one of the most likely two vents that should be in the cellar. i immediately feared the other vent was behind the finished wall. acting on this hypothesis, i looked down and noticed the floor tiles in the suspect corner were more corroded (maybe from steam/water damage?).



i am posting pictures of my radiator, the suspect finished basement room corner, the oddly shaped corner cover, one identified vent, and two pictures of the boiler.



i have a feeling i have to un-finish my basement to fix this problem... but wanted opinions before cutting a hole in my ceiling and/or calling a plumber.



much appreciated,



anastasia.

Jamie Hall

There are many reasons

why a radiator won't heat -- I presume that this one just isn't heating at all? -- and it is usually best to proceed very very systematically.



You mention that you have opened and closed the radiator valve (from your comment on the radiator vent, I presume that this is one pipe steam -- that is, the steam comes into the radiator through one pipe, at the bottom of one end, and that there is a vent on the radiator about half to two thirds of the way up, and no other pipes?).  Remembering "righty tighty, lefty loosey", make sure that it really is open all the way.  Sounds obvious, but...



Then, take a look at the vent while the boiler is making steam.  Is there any sign of air coming out (may be very hard to tell)?  You can check the venting for that radiator if you have a helper: turn the boiler off and remove the vent.  While one person keeps an eye on the vent opening (might check and make sure it isn't obstructed) have the other turn the boiler on, but be prepared to turn it off on call.  When the boiler starts to make steam and things begin to warm up, if steam can get there at all you should be able to feel air coming out -- and eventually steam.  Which will burn badly, so don't get your hand in front of it!  And turn the boiler off again.



No air coming out?



OK.  Go back down to the basement and start tracing pipes.  What you are looking for is finding out how far along the pipe which goes eventually to that radiator steam is getting.  It is possible that there is an obstruction somewhere -- which could be as simple as a dip or sag in the pipe.



Does steam get to the radiator, but not into it?  Does the pipe to the radiator get hot?  If so, there is a chance that the valve itself is broken.  It is not unheard of for a valve to fail closed -- you think it is opening, but it is busted inside and doesn't open.  But if that is the case, the pipe to the radiator should be getting at least warm, if not hot.



The odd bit of carpentry work in that room does look as though it conceals something; I do wish people wouldn't do that, but they do.  Is that more or less directly under that radiator?



I think I'm rambling... but this will do for a start.

Ironman

Pics

Can you post some more pics of the boiler and it's near piping, especially the header right above the boiler with the large black pipes. Shoot some different angles, please.



It appears that there are two risers going into the header from the top of the boiler with the steam main tapped in between them. If that is so, you're gonna have issues from water being drawn into the steam main. This may or may not contribute to your radiator problem, but it is serious if it is as it appears.

anastasialiving

no air.

i did the radiator valve open, feel for air/steam with the oil guy. nada.



the hard part about the basement, as you can see in the pictures i just posted, you cant see any of the pipes except in the boiler room... everything else has been finished. so i cant find or feel the pipe going to that radiator without opening the ceiling.



the odd corner is directly under the radiator...

anastasialiving

more pictures. more distress.

so i dont know parts you exactly want for pictures, so i took more detailed pictures.



unfortunately, i also found a nice rigged pipe in the corner on the floor behind my oil tank that my inspector also missed. i have a feeling this is the condensed return? this leaves the boiler in a T, running along the basement floor to the right to the relief vent (i think?) as shown in picture two and i think to the left to the vent that may be covered?



the first picture and second picture should be reversed, the second is the vent, and that pipe runs out the wall from my boiler room and is then hidden in a 1x4 covered box that runs into the "finished" room where i think the other vent may be...



im sorry, i cant figure out how to keep the vertical pictures vertical when they are uploaded.



i hope this helps!

SWEI

Radiator valve open

with the vent removed, and no steam from the open hole?

anastasialiving

no steam or air

when the valve is open and vent removed...

vaporvac

Pics bit further back

would help in order to see how all the piping relates. C

mcsteamy

So,

I am sure you will get lots of comments that the near-boiler piping isn't right from what you can see in the photos, but this probably isn't why there is no heat at that radiator.  Odds are, even if not perfectly, this system once worked.  The challenge is to find a way to fix it without tearing apart the finished basement, if at all possible.



Does the pipe that goes up to the radiator valve itself--not the vent--get hot?  It is not unheard of for a valve to fail.  Even if you think it is open, it might not be.  If the pipe to the valve is hot, but you have no steam even with the vent off, there's your problem. 



If that pipe isn't hot, then you've got more investigating to do.  In either case, you are going to have to loosen the nut holding it the radiator and wiggle the (very heavy) radiator off.  When you do this, have a low-slung LARGE catch pan nearby.  If that radiator is waterlogged, you don't want water all over your floor.  With the radiator separated and the valve open, fire the boiler again to see if you have steam.  If you have steam (and lots of it), you have a blockage in the radiator, and will have to try flushing it.  If you still have no steam, inspect the valve to see if it is actually opening.



If the valve is fine, and you still have no steam coming out with the radiator off, then it's probably time to start cutting a few holes to see how close the steam gets before it stops...

anastasialiving

updated pictures, better order

i am no artist, but i tried my best to diagram my basement and i think i figured out how to have pictures in the right orientation. so i reuploaded pictures in this order

1. schematic of my basement  (apx 21x30)

2.. top photo of furnace

3. furnace

4. insert to chimney

5. pipe leaving furnace which goes to the floor and connects with

6. a T shaped pipe that runs along the west wall of the house on the floor and connects to the

7. rigged pipe in corner that runs behind my oil tank that rises and connects with

8. the only visible vent and only visible section of 2inch pipe connected to that vent which

9. becomes covered as soon as you leave the boiler room, running the width of the basement

10. turning and ending in the suspect corner (note the crumbled tile)



i am unable to see ANY of my pipes with the exception of a few plastic hatches they put in to access water shutoff valves once i leave the boiler room, so i am unable to feel for heat anywhere but there. the radiator that does not work is above the finished room, above the oddly finished corner.



thanks for all your help and patience.



anastasia

anastasialiving

better order

i uploaded a rough schematic and put pictures in better order... thanks for your help!

anastasialiving

saturday adventure...

i am unable to see ANY of the heat pipes in my basement once they leave the boiler room, with the exception of a few plastic access panels they put in to turn off water, etc.

i am not able to tell if the pipe going to the radiator gets hot, its all in the finished part of the ceiling, which is also in the same corner as the suspected covered vent. we have tried three different valves on the radiator, all with no avail. no part of the radiator, not the pipe that it connects to on the floor, gets any heat.



i will try and rally some muscle this weekend to help me loosen the radiator, with a pan and buckets at the ready. i like adventures.



am i wrong to assume that its probably a bad idea to have the vent behind a wall? it seems to be damaging the tile (which i was planning on replacing anyways) but also is likely doing damage to the wall that was erected as well.



thanks for your help.

jumper

broken valve?

If valve is frozen closed radiator will be cold. Handle can turn but not pull spindle.

Mark N

Main Vent

Looking over your diagram you probably only have 1 main vent. It looks as if you only have 1 main that makes a loop around your basement. There is a vent located at the end of that main.

crash2009

Go get the Shop Vac

Before you start tearing the house or the pipes apart, there is one un-obtrusive little thing that you could try.  Make sure the supply valve is turned all the way open, then, remove the radiator vent, and vacuum the hole. 

Sometimes, at least with my system, this is all it takes to get a cold radiator going again.

If you can't get the radiator to heat, while vacuuming the hole for 5 or 10 minutes, as suggested all ready the valve is likely stuck shut or you have bigger problems downstairs.

anastasialiving

vac rescue!

thank you SO much for that suggestion. just a few minutes with my vac hose on the radiator vent, bam! i could feel the radiator warming!



i feel less motivated to cut a hole in my basement ceiling now, i am very grateful.



ao

BobC

How long

It will be interesting to see how long it works.



It could be a sag in the pipe that had a plug of water in it, after a few days that sag will accumulate more water and stop working.



The valve flap may be off the shaft and laying ontop of the valve inlet; the vac lifted it up out of the way so steam could pass.



Wait and watch to see how it heats as time marches on. If it does work for weeks it just means you can use the vac to bring it back to life from time to time.



Bob

crash2009

Steam is Lazy

That trick has worked a few times here on The Wall.  Sometimes it's just worked as a temporary thing, and they have had to move on to tearing the place apart.

Most of the time, it's just been steam being lazy, and refusing to go into an ice cold radiator.  Once we get the rad warmed up, it's fine for years.

In my case, what causes the condition, is a change in tenants.  Tenant 1 shuts the rad in the spring.  Tenant 2 moves in during the summer.  Come fall the whole system kicks into high gear, except for Tenant 2.  Tenant 2 doesn't complain until near Xmas, buy that time his rad is ice cold.  I open up the valve and steam wont go in.  It was a headscratcher originally.  Now I just automaticly go get the shop-vac.

You gotta stop before the steam hits the shop-vac.  The vac will pull the steam right through the bottom channel.  (without heating the sections)  I had a melt down once.  I was vacuuming all that cold air out of the radiator, everything is going as planned, the radiator is warming up nicely, then the shop-vac let out a howl when the steam hit the plastic impeller.

anastasialiving

don't kill the vacuum!

that's good to know! I used my regular old rolling vacuum with a detachable hose... I'm such a homeowner newbie I don't even own a shopvac yet! but it still worked. I'll keep an eye on the radiator and see if it poops out again!



anastasia

anastasialiving

main vent

so, do you think its the vent that is in my boiler room or across the house (and likley behind that wall)?



the vaccuming of the radiator only worked until today. i noticed it was cold again... vac'd it again. heat now. we'll see tomorrow...

anastasialiving

vac lasted three days

so i vac'd the radiator saturday, and it was cold today when i got home from work... im losing hope for my finished basement.

crash2009

Me too

These conversations in the middle of a thread get a little squashed.  I'll move down to the bottom of the page.

crash2009

Punching a hole

in that finished basement is not the end of the world. Those plastic access panels go in fairly neatly. The hard part is figuring where to put it.

Can you mark on the diagram where the cold radiator is, rescan and post.  Also can we get a closeup of the tile damage?

What state are you in?  You might need a pro.  There are plenty hanging around here.

mcsteamy

Shopvac

When you put a shopvac on a radiator, you're making an area of extremely low pressure, and the steam will be drawn there even if there is a busted valve or a partial obstruction.



Clarify again:  Is this radiator at the end of the line?  If not, putting apart the ceiling is likely not necessary if downstream radiators are getting hot.



If this is the end of the line, it is possible that steam isn't getting this far down the main because of either inadequate venting or undersized pipes.  Inadequate venting is more likely.  Undersized pipes are rare, but it can happen.  Had this issue on an end of main radiator in a prior house.  Did all the maths, and we concluded it was going to be virtually impossible to get steam that far on a shorter run cycle.  But, since yours doesn't get hot no matter how long the boiler runs or how much pressure it biulds, that probably isn't the issue.

anastasialiving

end of the line? (literally and otherwise?)

i believe the radiator is at the end of the line, since my basement is finished, i cant really tell... but i have a hypothesis that is above a blocked vent in the basement.

on another note, i am burning oil LIKE CRAZY and really considering biting the bullet, opening the the 1x6 finishing in the basment and calling someone to appraise a conversion to NG. 1/4 tank in less than 3 weeks (i have one 225g tank). i think that sounds obscene and like something isnt working right. i know the boiler system is old, and a few people on this post have told me its installed wrong...

so do i just dive in and change it over before i spend another 800$ on an oil delivery? install a woodstove in my fireplace and live on cordwood for the winter?

being a new homeowner leads to lots of sleepless nights pondering these things...

anastasialiving

cold radiator

the cold radiator is directly above the inverted "L" in the diagram that says "all covered in 1x6" on the opposite wall from the basment stairs.

the tile damage looks corroded, like the gunk that is around my cold returns in the boiler room. i'll take a better picture of it when i get home today.

Mark N

Cold Rad

Looking at you pictures it seems that you have 1 main coming off your header. Follow that pipe. Is that the pipe that goes into the finished part of your basement? I believe it just loops around your basement and ends at the vent which then drops down into a wet return back to your boiler.