High delta T, how to adjust it?

Tom_133

I had it happen

It was the ball off a zone valve!!! It was very cold out and I thought it was a frozen pipe, after several hours I found that stupid little ball!!!

Charlie from wmass

White bread pellet?

What was it?

Paul48

Hmmm

I was thinking a magic marker. C'mon Earl....You're killin us

Gordy

Whole wheat

Bread pellet. To last that long.



Or one of those jell capsules that are suppose to dissolve. To temporarily block pipe.

Mark Eatherton

Dirty tricks...

Was on a new construction job once doing the RFH system . Plumber had run his H&C water lines directly across the open chase reserved for the flue pipe. We cut them out, and the guys were SUPPOSED to reconnect them later. Didn't get to it before the plumber came back. He fixed his own lines, then proceeded to sabotage our system in retaliation...



When it came time to induce antifreeze into the system, there was one particular zone that just would flow right. After having sent two other crews up to do the simple task, they finally sent me up to investigate. I could pump fluid through the circuits backwards, but as soon as I tried to flow it forward, THUMP, flow would stop. I finally unsoldered the return line coming back from the defective zone, and lo and behold, found the blue rubber stopper that comes in the DHW heaters gas valve lodged in the seat of the Honeywell zone valve... Gee, I wonder where THAT came from.... I removed it, re-soldered the joint, pumped the antifreeze in and everything started working well.



As I was picking up all of my, tools, I took the pilot access cover off of his gas fired water heater and reached up inside the combustion chamber with my Channel-loc pliers and pinched the pilot tube flat, replaced all covers and left the job.



Fast forward, 1 year later. The owner of the home was a dedicated DIYer who had hired out most of the work to be done. She decided to do a free course on DIY contracting at a local free college, and asked me to come talk about RFH systems. I obliged, and near the end of the class, when she was talking about the good and bad experiences of DIY contracting, she mentioned her poor plumber. She said he fought with the water heater trying to get the pilot lit for a whole day, and ended up replacing the whole water heater to get it fixed...



Mess with the bull, and you WILL get the horn...



I told her what had transpired. She wanted to know if this was common place, and I told her that it wasn't. It was his screw up in not paying attention to details that caused the thing to go wrong in the first place...



And then there was the marble my dad found in a bull headed tee coming from a well serving a house and barn... Talk about the old switcheroo.. One moment, good flow to the barn, then stop, then good flow to the house, then stop.then flow back to the barn, etc etc etc...



And then there was the job in the mountains, during the Winter, where the GC demanded that we install the baseboard covers for temp heat BEFORE the sheetrock was even stocked. The stockers beat the crap out of the baseboard covers, which was kind of unavoidable. The GC had us replace them, and back charged the sheet rocking contractor.



Near the end of the job, we had one zone in a garage that would barely flow. During rough in, and bear in mind this was along time ago, and not designed by moi, we used Onix hose for baseboard. This particular zone (garage) was roughed in with just the hose coming out of the wall. Upon finish, ends were cut off, and finned tube convector attached. Again, two other crews attempted to get it to work, and I was the last person to try. When I got there, I opened the wall at the ceiling where I knew the hose came down. Tried pulling it up, and got a firm CLUNK as I tried. I measured out and figured out where the fire stop in the wall was, opened the wall, and found that the rockers had tied the 5/8" hose in a tight knot below the fire stop, stuffed it back into the wall, and covered it with insulation...



So, what'd you find Earl? A rock?



If nothing else, everyone reading this got a good lesson in basic troubleshooting...



ME

jamplumb

dirty tricks

How true ME. You always try to have a group of subs that get along and work together but every once in a while there are the rotten apples that don't care about anyone else and just want to get there part done as fast as possible without concern for the complete job. That plumber with the water heater problem must not have been much of a troubleshooter!

icesailor

Gettin' Back:

When I'd run HW baseboard on a second floor, I'd go up and down and through a wall if I could. But I would rise the 3/4"copper in the position it belonged in so I could connect it to the baseboard. I'd drill a 1 1/2" hole through the floor. The plasters seemed to be unable to keep from dripping imperial plaster into my risers. No matter how big the hole I made for expansion, the floor guy would drill a 7/8" hole in the board and fit it in the wrong location. It was a project to make the hole bigger with a sawzall and not damage the tube.

Although it cost me in the beginning, I saved in the long run. I nailed a 2X4 to the floor and connected the riser with a copper van hanger in the proper location with room to get the gypsum board behind. I also had a collection of 3/4" copper tube with caps that I soldered on with throw away couplings. I used them over and over. I still do it.

A guys got to do what a guy's got to do.

Zman

167

Earl,

Give it up! You can't do 167 posts then hold out on the punch line.

Carl

Gordy

Drum roll

Waiting for a drum roll.



Tat tat tat , and a rat tat tat.



Pitshh

Earl

Here's what I found

Here is what I found causing the low heat and high delta T on the one loop. A 6" piece of silicone engine coolant hose, hose clamped to join two copper pipes together and all plugged up with just a small hole for water to flow. Shocked I had any heat at all. 



No idea when, who or why. I removed it, dig the crap out, flushed the loop forward and backwards while the connection was open. Than I joined them with a Gatorbite coupling and than I flushed the heck out of the loop. So much so, 3 nice size solder balls came loose. So luckily below the purge valve is a ball valve and than a union and than the circ. I was able to open the union and than open the ball valve and the solder balls fall into my hand. I flushed it to make sure none were left. Other wise I would of have to pull the circ. I heard them flying down the return main.  



My thoughts on what caused it

1. The hose ID being larger than the copper ID caused a spot for stuff to collect from the old boiler when it failed.

2. The silicone hose and copper reacting caused it.

3. The hose allowing oxygen in and caused it.



Earl

Gordy

Number

3 would be my bet.



Well done Earl !



Actually could not have been better to happen that way those solder balls would have done a number to the circ.

Ironman

Did You Know...

The hose was there before you started looking for a restriction? Was there a pin hole leak that the hose was covering. I'm just trying to understand why it was placed there to begin with.



And, I agree with Gordy: #3.

Earl

Didn't Know

No, I didn't know it was there. When I first saw it, it set off a red flag. Looked like it was there for some time. I thought the same, covering a hole. I Squeezed the hose and there wasn't any piping in the middle. After squeezing the hose, the noise in the one heater stopped. That's when I knew it was related. Guess when I squeezed the hose it knocked crap loose and stopped the flow. No idea who, why or when the hose was used. My guess is someone couldn't sweat it and used the hose. There was burn marks in the wood at the connection but no signs of solder on the piping, they had clean cut ends. This was in the supply to the baseboard heater that was making the noise. Not sure why the noise, it wasn't getting but a bit of flow through that crap. I have great heat, the noise is gone.



Earl

Earl

Forgot to mention

I forgot to mention I also added Gatorbite ball valves to the supply of each loop off the boiler. Now I can purge each loop and isolate each loop if needed. Later I will replace the crap balance valves.



Earl

hot_rod

classic non-barrier tube

sludge

Mark Eatherton

Yeahh...

That "crap" is all of the ferrous components in your system collecting at the point of major oxygen infusion. Rust never sleeps.



As for the balance valves, leave them. They're not hurting anything. Just tighten the packing glands around the stems to keep them from weeping.



Congrats on your discovery. Enjoy the silent comfort.



ME

1sttimeposter

how did Earl know?

Congrats, Earl!

So glad you didn't give up (or I didn't give up in following up all these many informative postings!!)

I probably missed it from your postings, how did you know exactly where to cut to find this amazing clog to solve your delta T issue?

Gordan

See that green garden hose?

That was a good hint!

Earl

As Gordy Said

I saw the hose, which set off a red flag but didn't think it was my problem, but knew I had to repair it correctly. I sqeezed on the hose to see if there was copper tubing all the way through it or not. Also to see if it was hard. When I sqeezed on it, it was soft and no tubing through it. That told me the hose was ok and that it was used to couple the pipes and not a hole cover up. When I sqeezed the hose, it loosen up the crap and plugged the flow more or stopped it. The noise in the heater stopped, so I knew this was my problem. I removed the hose and found the blockage.



Earl