High delta T, how to adjust it?

Paul48

First

Your posting caused a big debate over circulator sizing the first day(10th) You were asked to provide the measurements of the piping etc(11th). You checked the amp draw on the 12th. You haven't done anything, other than check the amps.You are suffering from fear paralysis, and that won't get it done.

Earl

Suggestions

Install zone valves, don't see it fixing my flow issue as both zones would call at the same time and the problem would still be there. Also when the 42' loop is closed down as much as the blade balance valve will allow, the 58' loop still doesn't put out much heat nor have a decent delta T. So adding zone valves wouldn't fix the 58' loop.

 

Run with bypass closed, yes, didn't change anything other than lower the return temp below 140. Plus the bypass was always closed prior to me reducing flow to the 42' loop to get heat from the 58' loop.  



Pull the circ, haven't had the time and I don't have any parts if it goes wrong. On back burner till I have time and feel brave enough to take it apart.

Replumb at boiler piping, been this way since 1972ish. Would be a lot of work and money and I have high doubts it would fix my problem. Also the circ came from burnham mounted as in the pic, on the boiler return.  



Air, some say I have air while some say I don't.



Purge the loops, I have no positive shut offs on the loops. Only blade balance valves that don't shut off the flow 100%. I mention adding ball valves to the supply of each loop for testing and purging but no one seem to like that idea.



Pump size, some say the 007 will work in any home were some say it's too small, border line. I was going to follow Taco circ sizing and had plenty of people tell me I'd waste my time that the 007 is fine.



Some say I have a blockage or such. I don't know how to check for that. That's way I thought maybe the roar in the one heater was a blockage.



I'm grateful for any help, suggestions and peoples time. When you get x amount saying one thing and x amount saying another, you must try to figure out what you think is right and wrong. I'm not your every day home owner that knows nothing but how to work the t-stat. I can rebuild engines, sweat piping, do electrical, plumb a house and pretty much anything but drywall. I work in the power industury so pumps, piping, cooling towers, heat exchangers and such are nothing new to me. I've known I had a flow issue before I got on the site. I just don't know what is causing the flow issue and it seems only limited to the 58' loop.



Earl

Earl

Some people work

I work full time and have more going on in my life than my heating issue. Six days for me is nothing but a blur. I can work 40 to 90 hours a week, weekends, holidays and on-call. Then I also have just normal life stuff.

I dropped the idea of checked the circ spec as it was made clear by many people that I'd waste my time that the 007 is the right pump.

I suffer from nothing but working for a living.

Had no intention of causing a debate on anything.

Earl

Six days is nothing

In my life, six days is a blink, a blur. My plan of attack is to fix this flow problem no matter what. I'm not on a time schdule as my life doesn't allow it. Could days or months, can't say. Depends on my job and other life things and such.



Earl

Earl

Pruging

It will purge correctly with blade balance valves that won't stop the flow 100%? If so, I can do this and it wouldn't take much time.



Earl

Earl

circ motor to housing seal

What seals the motor to the pump housing? O-ring? What's the chances of me pulling the motor to inspect the impeller and not having it leak afterwards?



Earl

Earl

You forgot

I took pics that some asked for and posted them. Answered lots of questions, read lots of posts. Good bit of posts that weren't related.



I also ran the system with the bypass closed and open.

I also reopened the 42' and retook temp measurements with the bypass closed and open.

I on this site daily reading and making posts. Wouldn't be doing that daily if I didn't have net on my phone and doing it while at work. Other wise I'd probably be on this site once a week if I was lucky.

I cleaned all the baseboard heaters as well.



Earl

Earl

Circ operation

Circ runs anytime the t-stat calls for heat. The boiler is a cold start, no DHW.

Paul48

Normal Life Stuff

It's all normal life stuff. Working a lot, fixing the car, the toilet , the boiler, all the fun stuff. What I learned a long time ago, was that you have to work through the problems as they present themselves. If you don't, Murphy's Law will bite you in the ****. They will pile up, and the stress level goes through the roof. I wish you the best, and hope the heating system cooperates with your schedule.

Gordy

Earl

Chances are average the o ring will not leak when reassembled.



Remember when people come here for advice no one really knows the posters aptitude for the task at hand. No one knows if its another heating professional asking for help, or a general homeowner that can only run a thermostat, and knows enough to be dangerous.





Through your consecutive posts all has discovered that you actually installed the boiler, but do not understand circulator sizing, and you really did not know for sure how well things worked when you were done with the job until now. So everyone has to trouble shoot via Internet



A good trouble shooter starts with the basics first then works the problem from there. That being fill pressure, visible piping errors, circulator operation, air in the system etc.





007 are generically shipped on boiler, but does not mean it is the correct size the installer needs to do the math. Most residential installs it does fit the bill. They are also,shipped with the circ on the return for crating the boiler convenience. Properly installed the circ should pump away from the point of no pressure change which is the x tank. Years ago it was installed on the return with no problems, but it is better to pump away Gill from bell and gossett taught us this years ago.







So, Earl not bashing just pointing out that trouble shooting via Internet requires a lot of questions to get all the facts to give an educated answer, and most of the time the poster does not know what facts to give, or what is important, or not important.





Your pressure is fine so power purge as you have been told just don't go over 25 psi, or you will pop the relief valve which is set at 30 psi. Purge when boiler is cool at ambient temperature. Also take notice to how fast water comes out of the 58' loop compared to the shorter loop. If there is an obstruction your flow wil be noticeably less



If that does not work then it's time to check the circulator specifically the impeller. You may have some solder balls that got sucked in the volute, and damaged the impeller decreasing its efficiency.





Let us know what you find out.



Gordy

Earl

Gordy

Gordy,

Thanks! I agree and I wasn't complaining about answering questions. Just stating that I'm doing what I can, when I can. I'm not lazy or afraid to work on it, well, I don't want to be left without heat, I am afraid of that!. I work a lot of hours so I can't afford a break down as it would take me a while to get parts.



Yes, I installed the boiler. At that time, I didn't know about circ sizing, boiler sizing, only how to operate and clean them. Also how to sweat copper. Now I know more than I did but still not much. If I had to do it over again, I would of installed all new at boiler piping system, boiler sized correctly to the house. I'm sure it's overkill as my old man bought the same rated boiler to replace the old one. I was young and didn't know any better. I also didn't know anything about delta T's or GPM's. The boiler got hot and it pumped hot water through the copper piping so I said, it's working. I also never knew baseboard heaters needed cleaned nor did my parents. They were pretty bad when I cleaned them. I had to use compressed air as a vacuum wouldn't cut it. They were full of dust, dust bunnies, toys, coins, baseball cards, cat hair, dog hair and human hair. Now I know they need cleaned. Was day and night the heat that came off the 42' loop after cleaning. The curtains were swaying in the heat waves and you could feel the heat in the rooms. My parents had to be freezing a lot is all I can say. Get this flow issue solved on the 58' loop and get the 42' back to full flow, I will have great heat and hoping less fuel burnt.  



If I get off at my normal time tonight, I will purge the loops. It will cut into my sleep, but I may pull the circ apart and inspect it as well. Since I'm introducing new water to the system with purging, I might as well take the circ apart to lessen how much new water is added. I have really hard water.



Question, should I fill the boiler with soft water? I asked Burnham but they refused to tell me. The manual only says not to use soft water on steam boilers but soft water is not mentioned on water boilers.



Earl

Gordy

Soft water

Is not necessary in my opinion. Is this well water?



The only time hard water is a real issue is if excessive make up water is added example being unknown leak with make up water valve open introducing fresh water continuously.

Earl

soft water

Yes, I'm on well water. Boiler fill supply is before the softener.





Earl

Earl

Pulled circ

I didn't have to work overtime tonight, so instead of catching up on my sleep, I pulled the circ motor. I found the impeller is good to go. I also inspected the housing and the inlet and outlet holes for any blockage. All was good.



Earl

Earl

Purging and found low flow on 58' loop

After seeing the circ pump isn't damaged or worn, I refilled everything and started purging.



I Closed the blade balance valve on the 42' loop and ran the fill regulator wide open at 30+ PSI and ran it over ten mintues. Flow seemed ok or so I thought.



I closed the blade balance valve on the 58' loop and opened the 42' loop and ran it the same for ten minutes. Flow was great and more than the 58' loop. Explains why the delta T is good on the 42' loop and 60 on the 58', low flow.



So my 58' loop is flowing about half the flow. This is with some flow from the 42' loop as the balance valves won't stop the flow 100%. I have a flow issue on the 58' loop. Now, how do I find it? Any science on finding a restriction on a loop or do I have to start cutting pipe? Would I get noise at the restriction? I have that one heater that has a roaring noise, maybe it's got an issue??



I don't know if this 58' flow issue is old or new. Could have had the issue when they built the system in 1972 or when I installed the new boiler or happen last winter, who knows. Old man died back in May and Mom has no clue about the heating system.



I tried to attached videos of the flow, but they wouldn't upload.



BTW, my auto air vent is working in case anyone is wondering. Everything is filled, purged and quiet. Heat is back to what I had before.



Earl

Gordy

Verified

Three things now Earl. Actually four. Circ impeller is okay, system is purged, system psi okay, and notable flow restriction on long loop which you have known all long.



Your sure the balance valve was not tweaked a little while purging the long loop.

The flow will be less on the longer loop of course, but its only 16 more feet. Depends on how many elbows etc. certainly should not be half.



Is it possible that there is some hidden piping that may have been pinched in a remodel, or maybe in construction in the problem loop?



When installing the boiler you did not stuff anything in a pipe you may have forgot to remove? It's been done believe me.



I just find it hard to a restriction in 3/4" pipe unless something was left in a pipe, and worked its way to the end of the zone, or a pipe was crushed some how from construction, settling etc.





How many different base board sections are on that loop?





At the y where the returns converge your getting warm piping on the short loop, but not the long loop? And how far from the last baseboard to the y on the long loop?

Zman

Bipass and velocity

Earl,

Nice work with the circulator. For trouble shooting you absolutely want the bipass closed. I suspect you can leave it closed all the time. The condensation issue is a problem with "sustained" return temps below 135+/-. Once your system is working correctly, it will only see those temps at the beginning of it's cold start.The condensate will burn off once the system is up to temp.

I would focus your efforts on the velocity noise you are hearing. As someone said, there is no way you have more than 4 .fps in the 3/4" pipe. The noise means either air or a restriction. Could there be a hidden valve or a crushed pipe at that location?

Carl

Paul48

Piping

Do you have access to the piping below the baseboards on that loop?

Pughie1

long loop

Earl, I commend you for your perservance! I can see that this is really bugging you. We're all tring to assist you. In reading all the posts and trying to invision your system some additional thoughts come to mind. You commented that you don't know for sure that that 58' loop ever did work satisfactorily. 8 sections of baseboard is quite a few and 58' of baseboard is pushing the limits of a 3/4" loop in my opinion. Here is something to try - Go to Hydronic pros.com. thats John Siegenthaler's site. Go to down loads, there is a free download there for his hydronic design simulator. If my memory serves me I belive there is a section called  the series baseboard simulator, you can load your system in, give it some piping details, & select your 007 circulator, even your make of baseboard. It will tell you the flow, Temp. drop  along the circuit and heat output. I have the latest version - I can put in up to 12 rooms, not sure about the free one however. Its pretty neat. I've used it along time for circulator selection and much more & found it to be quite accurate. This is what Mark E was referring to earlier. 

Jean-David Beyer

free download there for his hydronic design simulato

I have the free version that came with the second edition of his big book. It handles only two rooms for baseboard calculations, but it seems to me that it does not really matter. Just do it as though you had  one baseboard in each of two rooms, and arrange things so it comes up with the amount of baseboard you have by adjusting the temperature drop. Or put in the amount you have and see what the flow and temperature drop should be. It even accepts Taco 007 and Taco 007-IFC. He has a lot of data built into that program.



I wish I could justify getting the full version, but I am not a contractor and I would rather get some of Tim's books if I had the money.

Earl

Piping access

Yes, I have access to all the piping.



Earl

Earl

Software

Thanks, I'll check out that software. I'll try downloading it tonight at work. I also have Slant/Fin's old software as well but it only sizes the heaters but it's pretty cool.



Earl

Earl

Bypass and velocity

Carl,

I too believe the velocity noise is a restriction. Makes no sence to have that roar on one heater and not the others before or after it. My guess is there's something stuck in the 90 between the heater and the riser or the 90 at the bottom of the riser. It's loud enough I can hear it from 5'.

I agree about the bypass, I'm only using it now as my return never reaches 140 or higher with the 42' loop cut back. Once I get good flow to 58' loop and open the 42' back up, I should have all kinds return temp. The 42' wide open and the 58' closed, I get about 170 return to the boiler with bypass closed.



Earl

Earl

Bypass and velocity

Carl,

I too believe the velocity noise is a restriction. Makes no sence to have that roar on one heater and not the others before or after it. My guess is there's something stuck in the 90 between the heater and the riser or the 90 at the bottom of the riser. It's loud enough I can hear it from 5'.

I agree about the bypass, I'm only using it now as my return never reaches 140 or higher with the 42' loop cut back. Once I get good flow to 58' loop and open the 42' back up, I should have all kinds return temp. The 42' wide open and the 58' closed, I get about 170 return to the boiler with bypass closed.



Earl

Earl

Bypass and velocity

Carl,

I too believe the velocity noise is a restriction. Makes no sence to have that roar on one heater and not the others before or after it. My guess is there's something stuck in the 90 between the heater and the riser or the 90 at the bottom of the riser. It's loud enough I can hear it from 5'.

I agree about the bypass, I'm only using it now as my return never reaches 140 or higher with the 42' loop cut back. Once I get good flow to 58' loop and open the 42' back up, I should have all kinds return temp. The 42' wide open and the 58' closed, I get about 170 return to the boiler with bypass closed.



Earl

Earl

Gordy

Gordy,

I was playing with the balance valves a good bit so I'm sure they were off, at least as off as they can be. I think they leak a good bit past as the 42' loop had cold well water through pretty quick for being off. I believe some of the flow I got from the 58' was from the 42'. Really wish I had some ball valves in the loops to stop the flow 100%.



I have no hidden piping, it's all below the flooring. Tonight if I get off at a decent time, I will run all the piping with a close eye and see if I notice anything.

I doubt I would of stuck anything in the open piping, I did it in a day if i remember correctly. Also the piping was pointing down so be even less likely anything entered or that I put anything in them. But anything is possible. Was a while back and my memory has went south on me.



There are 8 slant/fin 30 series heaters on that loop. The one with the roar in it, is 6 of 8.



The Y is about 4' from the last heater on both loops. Before touching anything the short loop return was to hot to touch and the long loop was warm and you could keep your hand on it. After cutting the flow down on the short loop, the temp camp up in the long loop. Currently about 125 degs on each loop.



Short loop has 7 slant/fin 30 series heaters if anyone is wondering.



Earl

Paul48

Mentioned

You mentioned gatorbites being rated for 250*? If that's the case, use them to bypass that baseboard from below. If that fixes the flow issue, deal with it when it in the spring.

Pughie1

comfort or large delta t?

Earl,

  Is your main concern comfort in the rooms on the 58' loop or the large delta t ?Eight sections of Baseboard could produce lower supply temps in the rooms on the end of the loop unless the orginal designer accounted for this in his design which I doubt. Most jobs  and for that matter design calculating programs don't account for this they simply use 180 degrees as ther supply design temp. therefore the last rooms could have less baseboard than actually required thus causing the discomfort. Siggy's program accounts for this by using the entering temp for each baseboard section to select the req'd feet necessary. Don't get mad but the suggestions to split the 58' loop in to 2 loops could help cure your problem.

icesailor

How high is hi:

I can't believe that this thread has gone to almost 150 postings.

How many of we professionals would have gone on this long?

It seems that Earl had some sort of problem. This problem absolutely could have not been there since the 1970's, but I've seen similar things.

Before it came into vogue and we started learning about bigger circulators (that are needed on undersized piping systems), 007's ruled. They rocked. Here we have a system that had to have rocked around the clock and suddenly, something happened.

We finally find out that there is a "noise" in the loop that doesn't work.

I know that most of you drink the Kool Aide of putting the fill on the supply, saving the boiler from I don't know what, but when you fill on the bottom of the boiler and purge the return, the boiler water is hot to the supply and when you purge, you can feel where the obstruction is. When the water gets hot to the return, it is purged. If one side stays hot and the other side starats to cool, there's something wrong. 58' is not excessively long. On a 28' wide house, it will be 24' +/- on the sides.  How many of us would put up with this BS? They make decent ball valve purge valves. This loop needs to be purged with a double hose connection delivering 30# of water through the offending loop, and either blow out what is in there, or locate it and remove it. It is also possible that there is a piece of wood debris in there from construction. I also say a place where a wood butcher replaced a floor and somehow, rammed a board into a drop and squashed it to 1/2 its volume.

There didn't seem to be a problem with the system until the boiler was changed, and the unnecessary boiler bypass was installed. Those blade bypass valves were junk when they were designed, junk when they were sold, junk when they were installed, and unlike some wine that improves with age, those things didn't get any better with age. Replace them with the ball valve purge valves.

A lot of free advice hasn't solved this problem.



http://media.wattswater.com/1911295.pdf

Earl

Gatorbites

Yes, I thought about that two.



Earl

Gordy

Ice sailor

Are you saying you purge a,system with the boiler running at temp?



I just feel a good trouble shooter tries the basics that do not take much money instead of throwing parts at a system that cost money. He checked the circ, pressure, purged at 30 psi with the bypass closed. The bypass was there prior to the new boiler being installed in 05 if I remember the postings correctly.



Now you could power purge at 90 psi and if there is an obstruction in the pipe take a chance it comes out through all the piping, or it just moves somewhere else. Maybe to a point less friendly to find. He has located a suspicious area where there may be an obstruction.





Would I install ball valves on each loop instead of the balance valve yes. Would that help the problem? At this point it's hard to say.



Would I put a different circ on to see if that helps? Not if I had to buy it only to find out that is not the problem, and can't return it. Earl does not have a couple of bigger circs rolling around in the truck to test the theory. Which I doubt is the issue.



As far as the free advice I think most here are great detectives, and can't help themselves from trying to help solve a mystery. All though its,a trade that pays its the love of,the trade, and the thirst for knowledge that makes a job fun too.

Earl

Comfort all the way

I want comfort, correct heat output, even heat and safe boiler return temp. Delta T can be what ever it wants otherwise. I only used delta T as a tool to trouble shoot the system as I don't have flow meters and such. I know systems were built with a delta T of 20 and in the real world it doesn't always pan out. I also know with high energy boilers you want low return temps so the delta T would be high. But I knew I have a very high delta T so that made me think flow issue.  

Not mad, your the first to suggest spiting the 58' loop into two loops. I was already thinking about spilting the 58' loop into two for a total of 3 loops and 2 t-stats. 4 of the 8 heaters are in one room and it would be nice to have a t-stat in that room. Had a suggestion of zoning each loop with zone valves and a 2nd t-stat but that wouldn't fix the flow issue. Would be a future project along with redoing the at boiler piping. First I want to find out my low flow issue. I still firmly believe I have a flow restriction on that loop which would still be there if I split it unless it happen to be right where I redo the piping, which I'm never that lucky.



Earl   

Earl

the noise was mentioned

As soon as I noticed the noise in the one baseboard heater I posted within minutes. Was told it's impossible to have velocity noise that it was air. That was a few posts ago.



Burnham install manual said to put a bypass in and so I did. Never used it till I had to when I reduced flow to the 42' loop. I don't know how many times I posted this info. From 2005 till like two weeks ago the bypass was never opened. Once I get the flow issue fixed and the 42' opened back up, the boiler will have a safe return temp, I will close it and probably never use it again unless I have another issue to cause low boiler return temps.



Was it there since 1972? I doubt it too but hey, who really knows? Do you? Do I? Does anybody? I just said it could of happen in 1972, 2005, or even last winter for all I know. I can't see into the past. I wasn't even alive till 1977.



Yes, I do plan to get rid of those junk balance valves. When I get parts and have the time. They aren't leaking and I'm currently using one of them.



Free advice has helped me prove I have a flow issue on the 58' loop. Once I find it, it will be solved. So I'm very thankful for the free advice and peoples time. Purging the loops with the balance valves was the best advice I got. I figured I couldn't purge them correctly without installing ball valves and delaying the trouble shooting. Pughie was the one who said I could purge using the blade balance valves, which lead to finding the low flow on 58'. He's the man and I'm the boy. lol



Thanks for the PDF of the watts RPV. I think I have one of those in the basement. Might of came in a box of parts I got on ebay at some point and time.



Earl 

Earl

no piping inspection tonight

Just told I'm working a double shift tomorrow so I wont be inspecting all the piping tonight after work as I will be sleeping. Maybe tomorrow night.





Earl

gennady

deleted

gennady

deleted

deleted

Earl

Problem found and repaired!!

Found the issue with the 58' loop! Was a blockage in the piping. I will post the details and pics later. I just wanted to give a quick update. Delta T's are within reason, I have good heat on both loops and the boiler return temp is well above 140 so the bypass is closed. YES, the bypass is closed. lol Also both balance valves are full open.



You won't believe what I found, looking forward to posting a detailed post with pics.



Thanks everyone for your time, advice and suggestions!



Earl

Ironman

The Suspense Is Killing Us

Earl,

Please, tell us what you found.

icesailor

A

A dead mouse.

Ironman

All that's left of...

Jimmy Hoffa?