Boiler Problem

JIMBO_2

I have a Weil Mclain CGi-3, installed 2006, and have not had any problems until now.  Due to a mix-up in billing, the gas company shut off the outside meter.  When they returned the next day to unlock it, they re-lit the piolet in the stove and HW heater, but this has no pilot, so they told the tenant to have me turn on the t-stat to make it run.

Well, I did just that, reset the temp and set to auto--but no go.  So I went down to the boiler to check it out.  The emergency switch was off, so I fliped it to on.  No go.  Then I noticed the low water cut-off's green LED was not lit either.  Looking inside, I see that the green "power" LED is off as well.  So I opened the gem box and tested the power to and from the emergency switch mounted on the boiler's side.  Good power.

Now I am lost.  Is there a reset button somewhere inside the boiler?  What might cause the boiler to have no LED lit for the LW cut-off and on the board inside the boiler?  I am lost at this point.  Any suggestions of what to look for?

Brad White

First thing I would think of

is air in your gas line.

Tim McElwain

Some LWC have a reset buton that

will need to be pushed. Is the LWC wired to 120 volts or 24 volts?



Check the secondary side of your transformer do you have 24 volts?



I do not have my CGI manual handy I will get it and try to give you more help tomorrow if you wait that long.



What is the number on the board, is it a United Technology board?

JIMBO_2

That was the 1st thing I thought of

But then I noticed the "no Power" issue and figured there would not be a connection between the gas/air and no power.  So I focused on the electric.  Why the 2 LED indicators would both be off, well, it just stopped me dead in my tracks.  Since the gas company guy was poking around inside the boiler, I thought perhaps he shorted out the transformer or blew a fuse (if there is one to blow).

Brad White

A second thought re: air in the gas line

is that after so many tries of a failed ignition, it goes into a safe shutdown mode, maybe where you are. I will stand back and let Tim et. al, take that further. But for a connection between air in the line and the control/lock-out, that came to mind.

JIMBO_2

ah, didn't really think of that

Yes, I do believe that is a possibility.  But, now, thinking back, since the emergency on/off switch was in the off position for a day, I think it would have reset when I flipped it on.  The boiler made no attempt to fire.  And since my side had the twin boiler, I went to see any differences and I immediately noticed the LW cut off LED aglow.  Inside the unit I saw the green "power" LED also glowing.  I cannot help wondering if the x-former was shorted out somehow, of if it has an internal breaker that I am unaware of . . . or a fuse somewhere.  I also do not have the manual for this boiler to read through.  Awfully frustrating.  There is power up to the emergency  on/off switch, but the LEDs are off.  I truly appreciate you both offering some assistance, I was beginning to give up hope.  Thank you very much.

Ironman

You Said...

That there's power "up to the switch". Have you checked the load side of the switch? Toggle switches that have been unused for a long time can fail quicker than those used regularly. Also, are there any fuses on the control board?

JIMBO_2

I will find out

I am not there right now.  As for the LW cut-off, I do not believe this one has a button on it ( I want to say it's a Bull Dog).  Since I was not there to address this issue, having been unaware of it, I had no tools to speak of with me.  The only "tool" I could think of after checking the things I could, was to dash up to Dunkin Donuts for a much needed coffee and to use there wifi to log on and ask the Help Line for some much needed advice.

JIMBO_2

Thanks for asking

Yes, there is power on both sides of the switch.  That was something I was sure to check for.

JIMBO_2

Here is a photo

Here is the LW cut off. 

JIMBO_2

Another view.

I was hoping to find a photo of the boiler with the front panel off so I could see the power board and x-former.

JStar

Check.

For a second emergency switch on the stairs or somewhere in the basement. The switch might be breaking the neutral instead of the hot leg. There might also just be an opened neutral line somewhere else...j-box, breaker panel. If you tested hot to ground, you'll still have power on all hot legs. You should test hot to neutral to diagnose the neutral. 

JIMBO_2

Yes, there is another red-plated switch

But it was still in the "on" position.  I clicked it on & off, just check it.  There is a GFI receptacle mounted on the side of the boiler, for the condensate pump.  This too I tested, hitting its self-test reset button, and it is good.

Tim McElwain

I have my manual

this CGi in my manual has a United Technology 1107-1 Integrated Boiler Control. You said the "green" power light on the module is out so that indicates there is no power to the board. You have 120 volts on both sides of the service switch. So go to the 120 VAC in plug on the module and pull it and see if you have 120 volts. If you do then you have 120 V to the boiler control. Reconnect the plug and pull the 120 v out pin from the module if you have 120 there then plug back in and go the the 24 VAC plug and pull that plug if you have 24 then the transformer is good. That means the boiler control is bad and will need replaced. If there is no 24 volts then you have a bad transformer. What may have happened when the gas was shut off the boiler may have kept cycling trying to come on and burner out the controls.



Before you do all of that however shut off the service switch and reset the system breaker then retry and see what happens.



With all of that if there is no 120 v to the panel then I would assume the low water cutoff is wired into the 120 v feed to the board and no 120 at the board says the LWC is the culpert. I would pull the probe and check to make sure it is not corroded.

JIMBO_2

Wow, now my curiosity is peaked

Thank you for the in-depth diagnosis.  At the time I didn't have a good tester with me, but I will definitely check all of those possibilities.  The original installer had a problem with the LW-cut off, as evidenced by the thick rust stain beneath it.  Other than that, it ran just fine  (though we did have a condensate run-off problem where some of it was running down and out through the inducer fan, hence, the 2nd tee on the exhaust.)

You know, you just might have something there.  The house is in New Jersey, near Asbury Park, and I don't know if the t-stat called for heat after the gas company locked-out the meter, but it seems as though every time they get involved with any of my equipment, there is an issue of sorts.  They may mean well, but the results are usually negative for me.

Jimbo_5

Low Water cut off power?

Is the power for the boiler NORMALLY routed through the LW cut off?

Brad White

Yes

Wired in series with other safety devices such that any one will kill power to the boiler.

4Johnpipe

Gauges looked pinned

This may seem silly however the pic with the gauges might indicate low or no water. Is there water in the boiler?

Tim McElwain

The LWCO can be wired to shut off the 120 volts or some

can be wired through the 24 volt side of the transformer. If you follow the procedure I gave you it will take you to the problem. Keep in mind someone may have drained this boiler, or if it was shut off during the winter by the gas company the boiler could have frozen and cracked. Is the water to the boiler turned on?



Look at the gauges as they seem to be zeroed as was already suggested.

JIMBO_2

Thanks, but

The boiler is filled, the fill valve is yet open, and the pressure is about 15  PSI.  The gas company shut-off was just this month.  I will not get back to this boiler until Friday or Saturday, since I am working in Islandia, LI, this week.  I am hoping the culprit is the LW cut-off. With the repeated tightening to quell the original drip, I am wondering if they somehow damaged it internally.

JIMBO_2

LW cut-off pic

In the photo the green LED is lit.  The gauges were fine too.  That was an earlier photo.  Now neither green nor red LED is lit (nor is the power indicator on the board inside the boiler).  When would the red LED lite up?  If the LWCO is cutting off the 120VAC to the boiler, then when or why would the red LED lite?  It has me quite confused as to exactly what is going on.

rlaggren

Some boards have fuses that plumbers can blow...

Which I learned first hand the usual way. I have blanked out how I managed that one, but the fix was found at  Autozone.



Rufus

mars_6

Low water cutoff in position of flue

The low water cut off in the picture is a 24 volt guard dog LWC manufactured by McDonnall Miller. I have stopped using this type due to problems in the past. I do not like the location of the LWC in relation to the SS flue off of the boiler as it looks awfully close to the flue and may have overheated causing this challenge. I would jumper the yellow wires and see if the unit comes back to life. If it works move the LWC and change it out to a new 120 volt and your done. If not follow the path of the 120 volt power and find out where if stops. If that has no end it is in your safety's on the 24 volt side. Again find the voltage impediment and if none show them selves it may be a bad board. Good luck Mars  

Brad White

That photo shows

the very first boiler I have seen, doing the "YMCA" song.

tim smith

RE: W/M boiler problem

Looking at that picture, I have a probable answer. If the overflow float switch on condensate pump is wired in to the low volt to boiler, being how it is sitting cock eyed, the overflow safety switch would be tripped as it shows in the picture, this would prevent a call for heat to boiler. Hard for me to tell if there is a wire to safety switch on condensate pump in pic. But good likelihood. Tim

JIMBO_2

Just spoke to instaaller

Just spoke with the original installer, who does not work for the company any longer.  He suspects the x-former to be the culprit.  If so, how difficult will that be to replace, and is it a commonly found item on a Saturday or Sunday?

Tim McElwain

Call a professional

he will probably have a transformer on his truck. If thst is the problem?

JIMBO_2

Trans-x was bad . . but

Thanks, the trans-x was indeed shot.  But there appears to be a short across the 24 VDC circuit.  Could the LWCO cause this?  I spoke with the original installer, but he has retired and the shop where he worked is down to a 3-day work week.  Any ideas what might cause a direct short on the 24 volt circuit?  Or where I might look?  Granted I am an installer/pipefitter, not a service guy, but I do the best I can on my own equipment.  It's Saturday, my tenant has no heat, I'm off, so if I can fix it, fine . . . if not he has to wait till Monday when I can get someone here to check it out.

Tim McElwain

When you say there appears to be

a short, what do you base that on? I assume you have done the checks I gave you in an earleir post which has satisfied that you in fact have 120 volts to the Integrated Boiler Control, is that correct? I am trying to help you here but it seems you are not following a step by step procedure but guessing and hopeing someone will fix it for you. So follow the procedure I gave you and get back to me. I will check back here later to see how you are doing.

JIMBO_2

Thank you, Tim

Tim, I sort of followed your procedure.  I got here, tested to ensure there was in fact 120V on both sides of the emergency switch.  Yes, there is.  I then flipped the switch to "on" and tested to see if I had power to the trans-x.  Yes, there is.  I then used a Fluke low-voltage tester to see if there was 24VDC coming out of the trans-x.  No, there is not.  So I am now wondering what might have caused the transformer to cease working.  I brought one from work to try replacing it, just in case that was what had stopped working.  I can easily swap one out for the other, but I cannot help wondering what caused it to blow. 

Tim McElwain

Does the 24 volts from the transformer

go directly to the LWCO? If so bypass the cutoff, the 24 volts should then go to the Integrated Boiler Control the 1105 control is that correct?

JStar

Fuse it,

Invest $10 and buy a "Li'L Popper". It's a resettable fuse that allows you to make a few mistakes when you are finding a shorted low-voltage circuit.

JIMBO_2

Yes, I like it

I tried to find one of the trans-x with the built-in breaker.  But no luck.  Not much open righ now, here in NJ, except HD, Lowes and the auto parts stores.  I may try the auto parts store, but I doubt it.

This problem is driving me nUtS.  What might have blown the transformer?  I will try jumping out the LWCO.

Tim McElwain

The circuit breaker

transformer is a Honeywell AT150F-1022. If you install a non breaker transformer to make sure you do not burn it out when you bypass the LWCO use the meter as your load. Please answer this for me so I can give you good directions.



DO YOU HAVE A UNITED TECHNOLOGY 1105 INTEGRATED BOILER CONTROL ON THIS JOB?

Tim McElwain

I would also invite you to

Rhode Island for some training sometime so it will not be so frustrating in the future.



It is a possibility that the LWCO is shorted out and took the transformer with it. To be safe however do not power up anything but the meter before you get back to me here. If everything is good with the 24 to the meter then connect the 24 volts to  to the IBC but pull the nine pin connector.

Tim McElwain

If it isn't an 1105-1 then

it may be an 1107-1 let me know which?



You can also try calling me at 401-437-0557.

JIMBO_2

No computer access at job

I have no computer on site, so I am running back and fourth between there and Dunkin Donuts to use THERE router..  So I am a bit frazzled at the moment.  I have to wait till morning to purchase a "fuse" link, if I can find a supply house open.  I do appreciate your patience with me in this matter, really I do.  Thanks . . .

Ironman

Transformers Don't Produce DC...

They produce AC. Are you using the DCv scale on the Fluke or did you just mis- state the scenario?



Make sure your meter is set to ACv when checking.

JIMBO_2

Extremely difficult acquiring internet connection & parts

Well, before being able to read your informative suggestions, I installed the new trans-x, had power on the 24 v side.  Connested it to the LWCO and smoked the new transformer immediately.  Running around last night from HD to Lowes I was unable to locate another trans-x, let alone a new LWCO.  So I decided to call for HELP via the local professionals.  After carefully explaning the situation up to this point, it has been suggested that the board is bad, my wiring is definitely no good and needs re-wiring, the board, TX and LWCO need replacement.  At this point in the game, I will try to find a reasonable contractor in the area (Monmouth County, NJ) because I have to leave here today and on the job out in Eastern LI 7am tomorrow.

I am a strong believer in training.  This year I attended Triangle Tube's 2-day class and found it very informative and helpful..

JIMBO_2

The board is 1107-1

The board is an 1107-1.  And yes, the piping does appear to be mimicking the Village People's YMCA.  To be honest, I have never come across boiler piping quite like this either.  Installation began 11/10/05 (Marine Corps Birthday), completed a week or so later, and other than condensation running back into the inducer fan, and down the side, it ran just fine.  There was an update/recall kit installed in late 2008, but that's it.

The gauges are fine, 12 psi and room temp (pinned) on the temp side.  And there is no safety wired into the askewed condensate pump.  Do you think the LWCO could, possibly, short out and burn-out the trans-x?  As I said, I do not normally delve into the diagnostic end of the business.

Tim McElwain

Yes there is a very good

possibility that the LWCO could be the short. Simply wire the 24 volts directly to the 1107-1 unplug all the plug ins to that board and then test and plug as you go according to the sequence of operation using the meter. If everything is okay then replace the LWCO, do not put a 24 volt LWCO but get a 120 volt and wire it after the service switch to shut off power should you have low water event.



Do you have the manual available for the boiler? If you e-mail me at gastc@cox.net I can send you wiring diagrams of the boiler.