weil mclain gv gold lockout problems

Tim McElwain

Go to the

Weil-McLain website and look for the boiler manual for your unit.



www.weil-mclain.com

Tim McElwain

Do you have a FAX number or

contact me with your postal mailing address and I will mail you the troubleshooting procedure. My e-mail is gastc@cox.net

Furra

Pressure switch makes briefly put then led flashes

Thank you for wanting to help. I am looking forward to learning how to fix this and more about theory of operation. I am a bit stressed with having to get out some cover letters and resumes. If you have never had the pleasure or it has been awhile count your blessings.



I do have the the maintenance and install manual.



The control module is 1013-200 UT Electronics Controls



I did contact WM some years ago, but can not remember the results, How long is the warranty? I think they tried to be some help, but said I had to call the installers. I was not so impressed with them so did not want to do that. Also there has never been much I could not fix. Last week it was the washer drive coupling that I replaced.



Thanks again. As much as fixing it I will enjoy a better understanding to prepare for the next failure challenge.



I live in VT.



The system is 9 years old.



It could not be more intermittent.

Tim McElwain

I am sympathetic to your dilemma

I was down sized out of a major utility in 1994 while home recuperating from a heart attack. I was 53 years old and making over $75,000 per year with full benefits and six weeks paid vacation a year. It is never easy but here I am 19 years later I get no weekly pay check and I have survived. You have to re-invent yourself and use the friends you have hopefully made over the years in whatever trade you were in. It helps to have Faith that God knows your dilemma and he will be there to help you.



Now to the problem at hand if I can get some contact info from you I will mail you (postal mail) some procedures for troubleshooting your unit.



The hot surface igniter has nothing to do with your problem as the pressure switch has to make before you go into igniter warm up time and finally ignition.

hodge

limit circuit closed 3rd light,

i installed a new integrated control panal cost em 275 bucks and after hooking up it gets to third light and flashes and nothing else, what does it mean limit circuit closed? it has plus in smaller then old one on unit and have to press it in by hand to get power feed can this be the problem?

Slimpickins

you should

Call a pro with testing equipment instead of wasting money changing parts.

Tim McElwain

Hodge the limit light flashing

alone indicates that the return water temperature sensor (thermistor) is shorted. You did not need a new board apparently.

hodge

ok

Solved most issues but now it heats water but doesn't go thru statement. Niether hot water of base board just heats water temp gauge good etc .

Tim McElwain

Did you

replace the water temperature sensor?

Scottso

Limit lock out

My boiler recently starting locking out. At first the TSTAT/CIRC LED would blink on and off so I removed the wire from the aquastat and the LED would stayed on and the circluating pump also turned on. The minute I reconected the aquastat wire the circulating pump turned off. I checked the transformer voltage and it's at 25 volts, should be fine. I decided to change the control module and now the TSTAT/CIRC LED lights up and the Limit LED blinks on and off. I changed the high limit switch that mounts on top of the tank and hook up another aquastat with no luck. I accidently, for a split second, grounded one of the aquastat wires and it started. The boiler will cycle with no problems for about 12 hours and it locks out again. A very quick grounding of the yellow aquastat wire and it runs fine again.

Boiler is a series 2, GV5.

Also, I recently had a generator hooked up after we loss power for 5 days due to hurricane Sandy and noticed the boiler wouldn't start at 118 volts but when I increased it to 122 volts the boiler worked fine. I never had a problem prior to the generator running the boiler.

Anyone have any ideas?

FOUND THE PROBLEM - The T85 switchs in the Honeywell zone valves were bad. My basement was flooded over a year ago and I stripped the boiler prior so nothing was damaged. After reassembling the boiler and changing the zone valve motors everything was fine until recently. I went to my local electronics store and purchased new switches, had to cut the tabs down but they work fine. Mayber there was enough contact in the switch to send the signal but not hold it on.

EricMH

Boiler won't stay running

I had this problem last year. 

The control module (1013-200) lights all light up but the last then as soon as the flame starts the pressure light turns off and it never has all of the lights on.  Last year I pulled the red hose off the pressure switch and it ran until the cycle was done or I connected the red hose back to the pressure switch.  I replaced the pressure switch and it was good for at least 6 months.  Now it is doing the same thing.  The motor was replaced 2 yrs ago and the module was replaced 3-4 yrs ago.  This boiler is at least 15 yr old if not 20 or more.  I checked the trap and it was dry, there are no obstructions in the venting with only 2 90* elbows and a total a 25' or less of venting to outside.

pod

pressure switch opening after ignition

In my boiler you can actually see the pressure switch close if you sight down the aperture.  Is your's closing then opening?

The pressure switch is to confirm that air flow is sufficient to support combustion.  The draft of the air flow across the cannister pulls a diaphragm and that closes the switch.  I can think of no reason why the flow would be good at start of cycle and then fall off with ignition.  Without continuity of the pressure switch, combustion will not be supported since the message is that there is insufficient air flow.

As a first trial I would remove the intake air hosing and let it draw room air.  If the problem persists then you know it is not the resistance of the intake air conduit hosing.  If the problem goes away then there is some restriction in the intake air supply.

I eventually disconnected my intake air from the through-the-wall adapter and let it draw basement air.  I believe the through wall fixture in the early WM high efficiency boilers were not optimally designed and there could be interference between exiting air out the hot pipe and intake air.  If the grate is clogged with leaves or snow the intake air would be compromised.  These are some thoughts.

EricMH

More issues...

I cannot see it opening and closing.

The intake air is already taking room air.  There is a make up combustion air supply feeding into the room that the boiler is in, the air source is from outside.



Now in addition to the issues with the pressure switch (or what ever the issue is that I first posted about is), the control module started flashing some codes.  The power and flame LEDs were blinking and the boiler was not operating.  I noticed this when there was not any hot water for the kids baths.  I turned off the power to the boiler system and turned it back on.  It took 2 cycles for it to stay running.



Any ideas on what the code is trying to tell me?



This boiler has been a real pain in the butt.



**I just found and read the trouble shooting in the manual.  It looks like the igniter may be bad.**

EricMH

How do I find out what BTU I have?

This thing is getting old, if I were to replace it down the road, how do I determine what size it is?  There is a number on it, I don't know if it is of any use or not - 550-223-116.

Tim McElwain

Have you gone through the

Chart #5 checks in the manual? If so is that how you determined the problem was the "igniter"?



Somewhere on the igniter or wire to the igniter there should be some numbers other than Weil McLain part numbers can you find those?



Some other things that can cause this to happen is the burner is dirty or corroded. How do you get your air for combustion to this unit? Is it from outside (better option) especially if there are contaminants listed in the I and O manual.



As for BTU look for the rating plate and on the plate it will list "INPUT" that is the BTU rating.

EricMH

Igniter

Yes, I went through the checks in #5 and came to the conclusion that it may be the igniter. From what I am told it had been replaced 3 or so years ago and has been replaced at least a few times.



I'll check the igniter for the number on it.



The combustion air is going into the room but not connected to the boiler.



Is there a way to clean the burner if is it dirty or corroded?

Tim McElwain

It requires someone

with experience to pull the burner and clean it. The failure could be the result of a poor flame condition caused by the burner. Get in touch with a professional and have them also do a combustion analysis on the burner after cleaning. It would be a good idea to also replace the igniter at that time.

EricMH

Thanks,

I will contact my installer

woogerman

GV series 2 lockouts

Hi, I have been following these posts as I was repairing my GV Series 2 boiler. I have experienced intermittent lockouts for the past 2/3 years or so but they were generally infrequent enough so as to not result in further investigation of the possible problem. Recently (2 weeks ago) the boiler failed to run and any attempts to get it to do so were met with NADA.  Upon troubleshooting I finally determined that the blower motor was not coming on even though it was getting power.  The motor was able to spin freely but powering it seperately would not get it to turn so I ordered a new one. Upon removing the motor I found that the capacitor was leaking as there was a sign of oil residue on the blower housing. Not a great deal but enough to trap airborne dust and leave a tell tale sign. One of my questions is this: Are you supposed to remove the motor & housing from the boiler in order to remove the motor? I ask because nothing in the manual suggests that and the question then arises how do you keep the blower wheel from falling into the housing? I saw that this would occur and was able to secure its location with a pair of vise grips on the collar.  Also I noticed that both the blower housing and the manual state very emphatically DO NOT OPEN THE BLOWER HOUSING.  WHY??  It is also worth noting that the particular motor in my boiler was MUCH more expensive than the average price mentioned.  $400 with no trade discount and $273 at the only other location locally who gave me the trade price.  I searched online and could not find a better price for my motor on numerous sites although other similar motors were much more in the $135 range. Any clues as to why? Just curious. Any responses would be appreciated as it helps to fill in the blanks in the knowledge base.

1sttimeposter

similar problem

My WM HE II model gas boiler had a similar trouble years ago. Just after I bought the control board replacement for it, we managed to solve the problem.

It turned out it was the more expansive silicone nitride igniter that we thought it would be better to our boiler. After changing out a number of parts without much luck, we figured this fancy igniter was something we put in instead of the original part.

So we removed that and put in a new cheapo compatible igniter, our intermittent lockout problem had disappeared.

EricMH

My problem is solved

I was having issues with the boiler not staying running and issues with the pressure switch.  I had a tech out and he cleaned out the fan fins (it was completely caked) and he cleaned out the cone.  It works like new now.  He put a new ignitor in as well, but that was not an issue.

novaboy

retired hvac guy

Intermittent boiler lockout. I have a 19 yr old Weil Mclain Gold boiler GV4 series 2 model. It started locking out at the start of this heating season. I thought it was the the control module so I purchased a new one along with a new ignitor. (Just in case) That didn't solve the problem so I bought a new pressure switch. This was all on advice from my local Weil Mclain guy. Still no fix so I started looking for something simple and obvious. What I found was water in the condensate trap kit. ( That's the little clear plastic box that all the vacuum lines go into.) At first I thought it was suposed to have water in it but it wasn't. It must have just accumulated in there over the years. In fact it was blocking the white vacuum line from the pressure switch so that at boiler startup the pressure switch would close as it should from created blower vacuum but at boiler shutdown water in the trap kit would block the vacuum line and not let the pressure switch open back up. This created a very infrequent lockout condition. It might only happen every couple of weeks. Unit has been working good for the past few weeks. The new parts weren't a bad idea due to the age of the unit and now I have some spare parts in case I need them as backup in the future. Hope this helps someone in the future.

kcopp

ty...

that is helpful.

New_Owner

1013-200_Lockout

I have a Weil-McLain GV Gold 1013-200 and came home yesterday to a lockout (first time that I know of). The 1st and 4th lights were flashing (Power and Pres Switch), the 2nd and 3rd lights were on (tstat circ and limit), the 5th light (Flame) was out. If I turned of the power and turned it back it, it seemed to reset the system temporarily but later would default back to a lockout. I did this about 4 times over 5 hours, went to bed with the system running and awoke with the radiators still hot. I check the system and only the power light was on.



I did not have a service person come because it was not in a lockout but would like to know what the flashing lights could be referencing so I could have a technician look at the system whether or not it is in a lock out. Thanks for any help!

Tim McElwain

The Power and Pressure Switch light flashing indicates

the following:



The pressure switch was closed when it should have been open or it failed to close within 5 minutes of the combustion air blower starting.



You need to have someone with a digital pressure gauge check the pressure switch. You are looking for 1.4" W.C. differential pressure across the switch. If the digital manometer is less than 1.4 " W.C. the possible causes are:

1. Blockage in hoses

2. Loose blower wheel on the motor shaft

3. Blockage in the air inlet or hose

4. The blower not getting up to RPM

5. Blockage in the flue pipe. Disconnect the flue and see if it will run correctly without the flue attached. If it will then look for blockage in the flue, remove it and reconnect the flue and try it and see if it now works okay.

6. Condensate trap filled with condensate.



Let us know how you make out.

aec

Owner

This year I found very similar symptoms to those that Pod experienced, in a GV-5 series 1 that I installed many years ago. The owner reported nuisance lockouts, often immediately following morning warmup on the next call for heat.

I found that the original White Rodgers gas valve was taking 2 1/2 to 3 seconds to open. Replacing the valve solved the problem completely. Here are some details.

Another serviceman had been stymied by the lockouts and had replaced the ignition module with the newer version. When this didn't continue to work, and he and the owner were out of ideas, I came out of retirement to take a look. One could hear that the ignition was just barely falling within the trial for ignition period, sometimes not quite. According to the Weil McLain tech service department, the trial for ignition should be 6 to 15 seconds. On the new controller it was 6 seconds. According to the literature, the original ignition module was to allow 4 seconds.

I was unable to find any specifications for the White Rodgers gas valve, except that other models in that numbering sequence were intentionally time delay style. But a 3 second delay when the allowed trial for ignition is 4 seconds can't be intentional. I suspect that the valve opening time was slowly growing longer, which is why the switch to the new ignition module helped for a while.

Weil McLain's replacement valve is very different. They provide a wiring harness that rectifies 24V AC to 12V DC for the valve. It opens instantly and ignition is so immediate that it is hard to time it. They do not provide with it the necessary information for the unconventional way of checking gas pressure, but you can look this up in the instructions for later series GV boilers.

If you are checking for this problem, don't be fooled by the audible snap of the gas valve. Check for pressure at the tap.

Hope this helps.

flyingplumber

GV Series 3 problem(s) beginning

Beginning to have problems with 13 year old boiler not firing. Initial problem with internal transformer failing. Replaced part, now OK.

Replaced motor on (1) zone valve for main zone, Seems Ok

Boiler not firing when Tstat calls and red indicating light calling for heat on control module not lighting.

Green Power Light remains constant. Any thoughts? Hesitant to replace control module in haste. Tstat wiring intact but light does not indicate. (2) heating zones and (1) indirect for domestic hot water.

Tim McElwain

Do you know how to

check with a digital manometer across the pressure switch? It sounds like the pressure switch is not pulling in. I am on my way out but check that and I will get back to you later today.

flyingplumber

GV Series 3 problem(s) beginningV

Thanks for the quick response.

Confused here. Probably need to recheck main zone valve wiring. Boiler starts on demand, for what seems to be a call for the indirect "Super Stor" zone, and then continues to run until both zones are satisfied.

Boiler cycles back on when water temperature in loop(s) drops to around 170. Control Module lights sequence correctly with TSTAT light remaining on while both

circulators functioning. Erratic behavior, will recheck tstat and zone valve wiring when system is dormant. Heat and domestic zones running OK presently. Problem doesn't appear to be in pressure switch or control module at this point.

Unless their behavior is known to be erratic. If module is the culprit, then confused by its on/off functioning. everything seems to cycle and respond fine when firing/cycling

flyingplumber

GV Series 3 problem(s) beginningV

Rechecked zone valve wiring connections. One may have been connected poorly. Boiler responding from both TSTATS and sequencing seems OK.

Thanks again for the suggestions.

icesailor

Zone Valves:

If you have Taco 57* series wax motor zone valves with gold heads, sometimes the plunger doesn't return all the way back and open the switch that will start and stop the TT (between #2 and #3). Especially if the plunger is sticking and not going all the way back. I've found this problem on numerous occasions. I take the power head off (after removing the #1 wire for a FEW minutes to kill the power, flood the valve body head with Kroil, and take a large pair of water pumps and operate the piston up and down to free it up. I then spray inside the head so that when I put it back, I can easily operate the by-pass lever. If it is hard to push down and hurts your finger, it needs the attention of some oil. Many times, I have seen things similar to what you describe with sticking plungers. If you can't push the by-pass lever down with your finger, the plunger might be sticking.

BJFitz

I have a 15 year old WMC gas heater GV 5. For years I had the same lock out problems. Power LED Green and Flame LED red continued to flash. I replaced the board some time ago (did not fix), cleaned the boiler, changed the pressure switch(even though nanometer checked out), let the drain go straight down into a t pipe........still would go out . Checked the vacuum suction and AC all ok.........so it would cycle a couple of times every time it ignited. Then when when it got colder the cycling increased and I got lock out. I ordered the 89 dollar igniter kit and gasket for it and the flange gasket for the blower motor. measured ohms on the ingniter,,,it was way out of tolerance which means the ability to meet ignition was compromised. Made sense why the flame light would lock out under heavier use in cold weather. Put new one in very quickly. Open flange for blower ordered new gasket for that . Inspected for gunk in blower and sprayed water into boiler to clean out. Lesson learned was pay attention to the led lights and trouble shooting. If a flame led was failing to stay on solid you should go right to the reasons why a flame would not ignite....igniter and clean cone...what else could it be?

It has worked great ever since then. Hope this helps.

RickInAnchorageAK

Great thread!!!
My Boiler is also lockingout. Have learned that lifespan of ignitor is 7 years and mine is orig equipment. This boiler was installed 11 yrs ago.

Also I see no ignitor glow in the little round observation window.

I just ordered a Norton 271Y ignitor from Amazon but--- can youall please lead me to installation instructions?

Thanks a lot--- Rick

Weil-McLain Gold GV Boiler (Series 2)

Docfletcher

Hi Rick, The Weil McLain part number 511330148 comes with the connector plug so you can hook up directly to the wiring harness.
if you go with the Norton you will need to cut the harness connector off and wire nut it to the connector. If you never had the GV serviced it would be somewhat normal not to see a glow because the window gets pretty dirty. You can usually tell if the igniter is working by looking at the white ceramic igniter housing when it starts to get hot just before the flame starts, the ceramic will show the glow as yellowish orange. You need to be in total darkness to see it though.

Install is easy only 2 screws and I think the instructions come with it.

RickInAnchorageAK

OK-- thanks-- I will look again

WilliamW

Hi, I hope that posting to this thread is ok for my problem (as opposed to a new/different thread). Posters to this thread seem to be familiar with WM Gold. So, here goes.

I have a Weil Mclain Gold GV5 series 2, installed in late 1995 (maybe early 1996). Some minor issues, but mostly I am pleased with it's reliably/performance.

Last night, my wife indicated no hot water (indirect fired domestic hot water). The boiler was working ok (fired up at low temp setting, shut off at high temp setting). Three zones were calling for heat. The internal circulator pump on was not running, even with three zones calling for heat and end-switch active (I think). System has eight zones using two zone controllers. The original Erie 5-zone controller, and a second Taco 5-zone controller, model ZVC405 (which has replaced the other Erie that was originally installed). (Taco zone valves)

I disconnected the circulator from the control module (Honeywell S9301A1001) and hooked it directly to 120VAC. The circulator ran with no problems. I ran it that way last night, making sure there was always at least one zone valve open.

I think I have a temporary workaround. When I replaced the original Erie zone controller with the Taco zone controller, I ordered a second identical Taco figuring the other Erie at some point would die. The Taco has an ability to control a circulator pump. I never used that feature, rather using the end-switch to signal the control module for heat. My "fix" is to wire up the second Taco zone controller and wire the circulator switches (on the Taco zone controller) directly to the WM circulator pump, bypassing control module. (I know that the control module doesn't sense the circulator pump as I have wired it direct and it runs fine).

My longer term "fix" is to replace the Honeywell control module with the new version sold by SupplyHouse, if I can further confirm it is the non-functional part. (money hasn't grown on trees around here in a long time, so saving it is all important).

My concern is this, I have read (or so I thought) the control module will modulate the circulator pump under certain conditions, the parameters of that logic I am not sure of. I don't think the Taco zone controller will do anything like that. Does this matter (if true).

So, does anyone see any major down side to this? If so, please let me know.

WilliamW

Hi, I hope that posting to this thread is ok for my problem (as opposed to a new/different thread). Posters to this thread seem to be familiar with WM Gold. So, here goes.

I have a Weil Mclain Gold GV5 series 2, installed in late 1995 (maybe early 1996). Some minor issues, but mostly I am pleased with it's reliably/performance.

Last night, my wife indicated no hot water (indirect fired domestic hot water). The boiler was working ok (fired up at low temp setting, shut off at high temp setting). Three zones were calling for heat. The internal circulator pump on was not running, even with three zones calling for heat and end-switch active (I think). System has eight zones using two zone controllers. The original Erie 5-zone controller, and a second Taco 5-zone controller, model ZVC405 (which has replaced the other Erie that was originally installed). (Taco zone valves)

I disconnected the circulator from the control module (Honeywell S9301A1001) and hooked it directly to 120VAC. The circulator ran with no problems. I ran it that way last night, making sure there was always at least one zone valve open.

I think I have a temporary workaround. When I replaced the original Erie zone controller with the Taco zone controller, I ordered a second identical Taco figuring the other Erie at some point would die. The Taco has an ability to control a circulator pump. I never used that feature, rather using the end-switch to signal the control module for heat. My "fix" is to wire up the second Taco zone controller and wire the circulator switches (on the Taco zone controller) directly to the WM circulator pump, bypassing control module. (I know that the control module doesn't sense the circulator pump as I have wired it direct and it runs fine).

My longer term "fix" is to replace the Honeywell control module with the new version sold by SupplyHouse, if I can further confirm it is the non-functional part. (money hasn't grown on trees around here in a long time, so saving it is all important).

My concern is this, I have read (or so I thought) the control module will modulate the circulator pump under certain conditions, the parameters of that logic I am not sure of. I don't think the Taco zone controller will do anything like that. Does this matter (if true).

So, does anyone see any major down side to this? If so, please let me know.

Tim McElwain

I believe you have the version with only one pump inside the boiler? The later version had a system pump and a bypass pump which work together to control boiler water temperature. Yours does that another way. That pump has to be controlled by the S9301 control or its replacement the United Technology 1013-200 so I would say if the S9301 is not powering the internal pump on a call for heat replace it. Make sure when you get the 1013-200 that it comes with a jumper to jump out the sensor terminal which is on the 1013 and not on the 9301.

1sttimeposter

Hi all,
Recently, my 20 year-old Weil Mclain HE II 4 boiler acts up. Can't believe 4 years later after first posting here on this thread, I am back and desperate for more help from all knowledgeable and unselfish pros here.

It has been a week and a half now that the boiler occasionally can't pass beyond the pre-purge and stalls.

Upon calling for heat (all by DHW since weather is still warm here in Canada), both blower and circulator come on fine. Then, for some reason, it wouldn't go on to the next stage to lite up the IGNITOR indicator light and the actual hot surface ignitor (271Y) will not fire up. The blower keeps running for a while (a minute or two) until the blower finally shuts down without being lockout (power green light is still on). It just stops. When this happens, the PURGE indicator light most likely wouldn't come on first (but not definitely).

When kids are yelling for lack of hot water in the shower, I just go down to flip the power switch on the boiler and may not happen on the 1st or 2nd or 3rd attempt, but the problem will eventually go away once I get it going for the rest of the day or two. Then the problem comes back until I turn the power off and on again.

Did swap out a new spare ignitor but still didn't fix the intermittent shutdown problem. Suspect the air pressure switch. Cleaned the red and white hoses and poked the two holes leading to the flue collector hood and the transition box to try to unblock possible blockage. No luck there. No vent/exhaust blockage that I can observe. Don't have a manometer(spelling?) to test the switch.

Any suggestion would be appreciated as always. Again, this new issue occurs intermittently. Thus, calling up a technician could be a waste of his/my time and, not to mention, money at this point.

Here's the link to the pdf on boiler's sequence of operation chart/trouble-shooting flowchart on Weil Mclain website for your reference if it helps: http://www.weil-mclain.com/sites/default/files/field-file/he-ii-hsi-control-supplement_1.pdf

newagedawn

gas valves sometimes react like this, tryed everything else, replace the gas valve