weil mclain gv gold lockout problems

bajafx4

I have the identical problem!

Hello all,

I found this post while searching for the problem w/ my Weil Mclain Gold GV boiler.  I live in SE Michigan area and today/tonight has been the coldest day of the year.  I came home about an hour ago to a 55*F house and dropping... it's probably in the 20's outside right now. :( 

My house and boiler are both 19 years old, but I've only lived in the home for just over 2 years.  I know the 1013 was replaced once before because the old one was left behind as evidence.

My WM-1013-200 box is doing the same thing as the OP of this thread.  I came home to the 1st LED (green power) and the 4th LED (red pressure) flashing, the 2nd and 3rd lights are solid red, and the 5th one off.  I reset the power to the unit and left the room for a few minutes... when I came back the status LED's were the same as they were.

I should mention that the last two winters I've lived this house, that the intake/exhaust fitting on the side of the house does ice up around the bottom and often the ice forms a big icicle to the ground (about 18"), but I've never had a problem with the operation of the system until today.

There was no more ice than usual on the intake/exhaust today than usual, but I did go out and knock it off.  I have the system off now and am about to restart it to see what happens.  My next step will be to disconnect the intake from the blower and let it suck room air like the OP did.

Stay tuned...

bajafx4

Almost identical.

Update.

Ok, I turn on the unit and the 1st green, 2nd red, and 3rd red light up for a few seconds and then the two red go out.

The green stays on by itself for a few seconds and then the 2nd and 3rd red come back on.

After what seems to be about 3-5 minutes, the green light starts flashing and the 4th red light comes on flashing.

I noticed a slight humming.  After investigating I noticed it's coming from the blower motor... the blow motor is only turning the blower at about 1 revolution per every 4-5 seconds... it's super super slow!

I turned the power back off.  I can spin the shaft on the motor (while it's connected to the blower) with my fingers with very little effort.  This tells me that the blower and the blower motor ar not siezed.

What should I check next?  Should I verify there's 120VAC going to the motor?

Thanks again!  To the OP, sorry to hijack your thread, but I need to get some heat in this house ASAP!!!  I'm going to make the dogs sleep in bed with my wife and I tonight.

bajafx4

HOT!

... and the motor is pretty hot too.

icesailor

Gold Lockouts:

Replace the motor and fan assembly. If it doesn't turn up to speed, the draft prover switch won't close.

bajafx4

Bad Motor

I applied 120V directly to the motor leads and it just barely spins... definitely nowhere near the 3400rpm it's labeled as.

pod

blower motor replacement

If you apply 120v to the motor and it doesn't move much that seems evidence that it has seied (ostensibly from lack of oiling, or maybe through some other failure in the motor itself).  It is easy to replace and costs $135.  It is a Fasco moter that is supposed to run at 3400 rpm.  Google will easily find the ID.  Prices range from $100-150 but most seem about $125.  Google:  Weil McLain GV-Gold blower motor replacement.  The instructions are even available on line although it is pretty obvious.  You do need a long allen wrench to loose the cage from the shart but other wise no particular specialty tools.  The allen wrench comes with the motor as I understand.

This assumes that the allen screw which attaches the fan squirrel cage to the motor shaft is tight.

It also assume that there is 120V being delivered to the motor when in the machine (i.e. that there is not a transformer failurure). 

I think it would be unusual for it to go from normal quiet operation to seize without a period of noisiness from the fan.  If you are in the cold; I would vote for a motor replacement to solve the immediate problem.  On line or Graingers or any HVAC supplyu store supplies such motors routinely. Fasco is one of the larger moter supplies for such units.  Perhaps after the fact you can diagnose the fault when you have the old motor out. The replacement is easy, a DIY project.

pod

A solution maybe....1 cold week without a lockout.

My installer agreed to come over and diagnose the problem and teach me what he could about the system.  What a great opportunity.

First removed the intake hosing and examined the gas mixing orifice which looked clean and proper.  Then removed the blower assembly (you need a replacement gasket if you do this....they are $1.68 from pexsupply.com..get a couple).  The blower assembly is a carburetor--it mixes the intake air and metered gas and then blows it through a two cone assembly which fills the orifice between the blower assembly and the boiler proper to force the gas/air mixture into jets of fire.

Observations.  The fan motor was quiet, cool to touch even when running, and came up to fixed speed quickly.  The squirrel cage fan assembly was as clean as new with no dust trailers or other signs of dirt.  The allen fitting was tight. The silicon seals were all intact.  I think the fan is fine despite the puzzling improvement with inside air (i.e. disconnecting the outside air connection and sucking inside air reduced the lockouts dramatically).

The cone assemply is really two cones. The inner, slightly smaller, stainless cone (with about 15 large (dime sized oval side holes) looked new.  The downstream, fine screened cone (which snugs right over the SS cone was also clean with no debris (or Miller moths); Both came out easily after disengaging them from the gasket material which had pretty much press flowed to seal everything at that connection.  The screen cone is tack welded in six spots, five of them had separated but the one remaining seemed to keep the cone in place sufficiently.  With the carburetor section now removed you could look right into the catcombs of the boiler.  There was a collection of uniform, reddish-rusty colored debris (not ash exactly, somewhat heavier, I would guess a collection of rust from the cast iron surface of the boiler sections). which was sitting at the bottom of the venturi behind the cones the way snow stays behind a stonewall when it is windy.  It shadowed the orifice but did not appear to occlude it in any way.  It quickly vacuumed out.  The remainder of the gas pathways in the boiler were cleam (using a flashlight and mirror).

We replaced the hot surface ignitor and gasket which attached to the plate with four studs which attaches the blower assembly to the boiler oven.  The old one appeared to work (i.e. glowed more strongly for 5-10 seconds and appeared pink orange hot).  We figured what the heck put in a new one.  I had ordered a new block temperature limit switch but since the old one appeared to be functioning I'll keep it as a spare. 

Reassembled the unit and fired it up and it has been without lockouts for 8 days of cold and windy new england weather.

Conclusion:  No obvious defect was found.  I doubt the small amount of amorphous debris was affecting anthing.  It may have interrupted some of the jets from the cones (those on the inferior surface near the gasket) by mass effect. Don't know.

In the end it may be a simple as the new igniter.  Reading about these things they can appear to be functioning and nonetheless fail to cause ignition.  I would say this is a good lesson.  Replacing the igniter every five-seven years would seem good mainttenance and at any time the lockouts start to appear.

Re: oil for blower.  I went to the two largest HVAC supplliers in R.I. and neither had dispensers of 20 weight oil, neither had heard of anderol 486.  They both offered a pull out spout container of thin clear oil which ("is what everybody uses for boiler blower fans").  I continue to maintain that the instruction to "ONLY USE 20 WEIGHT OIL" is vague.  I think it should say use a lubricating oil that has no additives or detergents and which is thin at room temperature.  One source suggested nail gun oil.  In any case, as a amateur I have yet to find a source of 20 weight oil.  If the requirement is that esoteric, they should supply a small dispenser with the boiler.  I mean you use 6 drops per year.

It is such a relief to have a reliable boiler for once especially now that the winter is closing in.  I have taken more from this forum that any other internet site.  I want to thank every one who contributed.

I would say that a reasonable handy person who respects safety concerns about shutting off the gas and electricity before going in could service the unit every three years or so without any issues. Judging from the 15 years this one has been in service, it is a well built unit.  I owe an apology to Weil McLain.  It is tempermental (as it seems all higher efficiency boilers are) but actually quite simple in design and built of good materials.

Finally, I came to a realization about high efficiency boilers (including the new condensing, very high efficiency ones).  The money you save in energy will be redistributed to service calls for maintenance and for the inevitable diagnostic visits when the control circuit gets tempermental.  I would take an 85-87% efficient unit and go with that rather than try to squeeze 5-7% more efficiency out of a very high efficiency unit.  They are by design heavily controlled with multiple sensor inputs (including outside temperature), they can vary the energy output to suit the conditions (two phase heat), etc.  The price you pay for this exquisite energy capture is the increased likelihood of lockouts whether legitimate or spurious.  Since I spend about $1500 per winter to heat, a ten percent savings would pay for one maintenance service call per year.  I'd rather let some of the energy go out the exhaust to be free of lockouts.

I want to thank everybody expecially Tim McElwain for maintaining a truly professional and helpful site.  I understand a little more about my world and the devices which I rely on for a comfortable home.  Best wishes to all.  Happy Holidays from a warm R.I. home.

Charlie from wmass

Thanks for following up

Hope you have a warm holiday season. I am sure I speak for many here that it is really nice to get a thank you. One last thought I did have one a few weeks ago that had a bad weld on the cone. That causes lots of funny stuff to happen.

pod

You're welcome

You are welcome Charlie.  It feels so nice to have a reliable boiler.  You are familiar with the cold winters here in N.E. and it is a terrible feeling to go to bed and wonder if you will wake up with a lock out and 55 degree morning.  I actually worried more about the pipes and was reluctant to take any trips that would have me away for many days.  My neighbor volunteered to check it every night but that's quite a nuisance for him.

Regarding the spot welds on the mesh cone.  Only one left of the six to hold it has me a bit nervous but one of my winter golf partners is a welder and he says take it out and bring it over.  I will do that if the GV acts up again.  Now I know where to look and how to check the inputs to the controller, so I am optimistic that if problems arise again I can pop the carburetor off and get the cone done within hours.  Actually I am trying to locate a supplier but it only comes in a kit for $140 with a new igniter and gasket (an probably contains the stainless over-cone which I don't need to rerplace).  If that last spot weld lets go I expect to find the inner mesh cone blown deep into the throat of the boiler's straight runway.  I find the placement and orientation of view hole in the blower assembly almost impossible to use for visualization of the flame (strange angle of view is required b/o other parts and supports).

For now I am satisfied that it is working well and I'll hope that continues through the winter.  If not, thanks to you folks at this site, I'll be able to undertake a logical sequential troubleshooting trip into the cabinet.  I feel very familiar with the territory.  There's nothing like taking something apart and putting it back together to build confidence.  As I said earlier, I'm impressed at how simple the operation of the boiler is once you understand the inputs to the control panel.  I would love to see a diagram or visualization of the flame path through the catacombs and runways of the boiler--it is a GV-5 series one and has five heat exchanger sections that are silicon sealed together like a big sandwich.  It hard to imagine that the flame from the cone at the Right bottom of this big multisection oven gets carried through all those passages.  Maybe it is just a hot gas or plasma by the time the exhaust turns one of those corners and that is sufficient to give off its heat to the exchangers.



Once again.  Thank you for your interest.

Charlie from wmass

I would just buy the kit

The new cones seem to be a better configuration and you seem familiar enough to change it now. Plus that extra igniter could come in handy some January night.

pod

follow up on "lock-out" thread at six weeks

I am glad to report that there have been no (as in zero) lockouts during the last six weeks of pretty cold and windy New England winter days.  No new insights but man is it nice to trust my boiler to be reliable.  I decided to route the air intake through one elbow from the basement (the boiler is a first floor closet installation cause I am in a flood zone and wanted the utilities higher than basement).  Maybe it would work now if connected to the through wall fitting but I'm happy to make that a pure exhaust fitting.

Thanks again everyone.  Happiness is a warm house.

1sttimeposter

Congrats!

Similar problem to our 12 year-old WM HE II boiler (gas-fired, induced draft, hot surface ignition).



In the last 2 years, at no prior warning or sign, it just locks itself out randomly whenever it wanted to.



I can see igniter all glowed up, but just no flame came on. After 3 trials, it gave up. Then all I had to do was flip the boiler power off, waited a minute or two, and then switched it on. It would then be sure work for a day, days, a week, or sometimes weeks... then it failed again for me to do my magic to flip the switch.



So far, we replaced the gas valve, HSI prematurely twice, zone valves without any luck, and now we are down to try to change the control module board (UT 1013-100) which is $200 a piece plus labor.



Anyway, congratulations to your happy conclusion to your misery. wish us luck.(I guess we need more than luck here)

pod

look hard at igniter

My experience has led me to believe that a glowing igniter is not necessarily a sufficiently hot igniter, or, at least, an effective igniter.  It is a good idea to have a spare.  I would replace the igniter with the new a before you spend too much more time or money.  If it doesn't make a difference then so be it but it should always be suspect with intermittent lock outs.  You may already have done this but I did not know that and assumed that the glow meant it was working, that is not the case.  I did some internet reading on ceramic igniters...just simple google query....and found that not to be the case.  Good luck.

Tim McElwain

Hot Surface Igniters

Especially the older Silicon Carbide have distinct characteristics that troubleshooters need to be aware of. They are typically either a 17 second warm up or a 34 second warm up. Norton for example their 201 igniter is a 34 second igniter the 271 is 17 second igniter. Most over the counter sales of igniters which are distributed by either Robertshaw or White Rodgers are 17/20 second igniters. The important thing is a 17 second igniter can be used with a module with 34 or 40 second warm up, but a 17 or 20 second module could not be used with a 34 or 40 second igniter. White Rodgers by the way are the 20 second and 40 second modules. The module by the way actually controls the warm up not the igniter.



Next when troubleshooting you need a multimeter that is able to measure resistance in (OHMS) and current in (AMPS) along with voltage and microamps..



The RTR resistance that is Room Temperature Resistance of the 201 is 45 to 400 ohms the 271 is 40 to 75 ohms. They operate between 4.25 amps to 4.75 amps. So even though the igniter may be glowing it does not mean it is working correctly. The igniter when it is powered is at its maximum (cold) or RTR resistance. As it heats up its resistance decreases and reaches a point were the electronics will recognize it is safe to open the gas valve. At that point if the igniter is both an igniter and a sensor (direct sense or local sense) the igniter becomes a sensor and must generate back to the electronics in the module a microamp signal between 2 to 10 microamps, normal is around 3 to 5 microamps. If that signal is received by the module or integrated control then it will allow the system to continue running otherwise it will typically go back through several re-attempts to ignite and then perhaps go into a soft lockout ( can be a hour or more). The igniter in order to be a good sensor must be 3/4 to 1 " into the flame and 1/4 to 1/2" above the burner, the burner by the way is used as ground in this case for the microamp circuit. If the igniter is not to be used as a sensor (called remote sense) then a separate flame rod will be used.



In my manual Electric Ignition Systems Volume II we have a complete troubleshooting procedure for these systems. I can be contacted at gastc@cox.net

1sttimeposter

igniter

Thanks Tim, I have ordered the replacement control module, this one is labeled as WeilMclain product and not United Technology which is the original one.



We'll see. I also ordered the original 511-330-188 WM brand HSI along with the harness. I notice the Norton 271Y that is there now just has two nuts connecting with the other end.



Yes, this will be our third igniter attempts.

Tim McElwain

I think you will

probably get a United Technology (with Weil McLain name) 1013-200 which is now pretty much the Universal replacement. Let me know if that is what you get. If you do it comes with a special circulator harness and a little jumper that has to be placed on the new board.

1sttimeposter

UT

oh. hope they have improved this and fixed all the glitches.

Anyway, here's what shown on the site where I bought it.

Tim McElwain

Yes that is the 1013-200

from United Technology.

1sttimeposter

thanks

Thanks for the confirmation! Hopefully, this will fix the prior version of 1013-100 which is what we currently have installed in the HE boiler

pod

f/u lockouts; one new queston

I am pleased to report that since the replacement of the igniter and a thorough cleaning my WM GV-Gold 5 series 1 boiler has not locked out once in the following months of testing winter weather.  Thanks to all.  I love being able to trust my boiler.

I recently drained the system with a HVAC pro (had been about 15 years since original fill) and replaced the pressure relief tank and the low water fill valve.  The drained fluid was water-like in appearance and ph=7 with no coloration or taste despite haveing had tinted glycol put in originally.  I assure it was diluted out over the years (through refill valve) or that it evaporates (unlikely).  Anyway refilled system with glycol/water mix and good to go.  My only concern is that the low water fill pressure is 20 psi rather than the advertised 12-15 psi.  If I drain a bit of water off the pressure will fall but then when I open to street pressure it creeps up to 20 psi and stops.  In operation at 180 degrees the pressure creeps up to 25 which is nearer the pressure relief valve than I would wish

My question is whether there is an adjustment on the low water relief valve (Watts model S1156F) which would reset the valve closure to a lower psi.  The Watts regulator says: set 12-15psi; range 1-25 psi.

Is there and adjustment that could be made to fine tune the psi lower.  (the plunger and trip tab unscrew easily to reveal a deep well into which the copper rod sits.  There is a threaded stalk and a hex nut visible.  Can this be adjusted.

I realize there is an alternative: (1) bleed the cold system to 12 psi; (2) shut off the street water ball valve; (watch the system over time to be sure the pressure does not fall due to leaks or venting drips).  This essentially makes me the fill valve.  I would prefer to have it happen automatically.  Any instructions?

It could be a bad valve.  We did probe the piping and there was no crud to speak of before replacing the low water relief valve.  Is the low water relief valve setting adjustable within the 10-25 range?  Thanks.

pod

Found solution to low water valve adjustment. Never mind.

When everything else fails read the instructions.  None came with the valve but on-line watts.com did answer the question.  Most of the low water fill valves have a locknut on a threaded shaft.  Loosen the locknut and turn counterclockwise to lower the pressure set, clockwise to raise it.  I backed the shaft off (CCW) a few turns and now it is at 12 psi when the system is cold.  Sorry to ask and answer my own question.

anziconda

This might help...

   Hi there I'm a heat tech in Montana.   Sunday I found this thread because I got a call about a boiler in Big Sky with the same symptoms.   Following the troble tree from w/m, I replaced the module...No help.   Then by accident I happened to see the boiler work and then cut out...the call for heat was fluctuating.   In this particular system the boiler was signaled by the end switch in a Taco pump box.   The switch in the box was closing, but intermittantly going off and on and possiblly not letting enoug current to get back to the boiler.   A good way to see if you have similar problems would to be to wire the two black wires in the boiler(labled 24v to t-stat) together...Basically just jumping the endswitch.   Reset the boiler and see if it acts normally.   If so you need to look at what is signaling the boiler(t-stat,pump box, etc)

   I have always assumed that a end switch is just a simple there or not continuity check, however this is the second time I've seen something similar...It seems that some solid state devices might make contact, but they don't allow enough current through them.   Just my findings, Hope this helps!!!

3ne

Got the same Problem

I am new to this forum and need some help. My 6 year 3 month old Weil Mclain Gold GV4 boiler has been acting up.



First I lost heat this past Tuesday. Called my regular HVAC repair guy

out. After about an hour of checking, found out that my circulator pump

was not running. Only the by-pass pump was running the system.



Got a new circulator pump installed the next day. System got back on and ran for about 30 minutes and then shut off.



The LED's were flashing the trouble: 'TSAT CIRC' which reads 'Frozen boiler water prevention activated'.

In this mode the circulator pumps keeps working but the gas gets shut

off. My repair guy messed around a few minutes then shut off the power

for 45 secs as noted, turned it back on and the unit fired up again.



There lies my problem. The boiler keeps shutting down after

approximately 30 minutes( I have timed it on several occasions). So for

the past couple days I am running down to the basement to reset the

boiler.



Should I replace the water temperature sensor ? I have now zipped tied

it to the main return pipe in its original location to see if it needed

to make better contact with the pipe.



Is my GV4 circuit board faulty? Once the house temperature reaches the set point it shuts off the unit and the LED is all green.



Also I have noticed that the temperature on my thermostat goes about 5

degrees below the set point before it calls for heat to refire the unit.

Does my programmable Thermostat need replacing? it is only 1.5 years

old.



This morning (Sunday) got up to a cold house 61. Went down to the basement again

reset. Did that for 4 times at 30 minute intervals the went to church.

Got back at about 10:00 and my furnace is still running



Kept running until it hit target at 70 now i am waiting to see when it will kick back on.



Anyone out there have had this happen?



Let me know your thoughts.

Tim McElwain

No thoughts just want

to know if the control board is flashing any codes?



I suggest you read this entire posting as it will give you some education on your system. That way when your repair man comes you have some idea as to which way to go. The worst thing to do is throw parts at something find the problem then if parts are needed go ahead.



What is the number on your control board on your unit?

pod

lock outs.

I had the problem you have.

Two inexpensive ideas which solved my problem just before I committed suicide.

1) Replace the hot surface igniter.  They fail at about 7 years and it is not apparent that they failed since they still glow (not enough and not at the correct time).  They are relatively cheap (

3ne

Gold GV4 cut off issues

Tim yes the LEDs are flashing I have the 1013-200 board. Only thing different from the unit posted above is that my LEDs run horizontal not vertical



Pod you mentioned two cheap fixes, the igniter but did not mention the other



I have short circuited the thermostat a couple hours ago and that has kept the unit going now. My room temp is up to 71.5 and rising very slow. Been there for about 45 min.



Should I then replace my thermostat ? This is frustrating and here in the dc metro area is the coldest we have been all season.

Let me know

Tim McElwain

Which lights are flashing

when the unit will not run. We can diagnose the problem by determining the lights flashing.



Before you replace the igniter do a RTR test and also check the amperage when the igniter is glowing should be 4.25 to 4.75 Amps the resistance should be 40 to 75 ohms.



Do you have the manual for your unit?

pod

lockouts

Sorry, my note got truncated.

Tim is right; the diagnostic information in which leds are blinking and which are not is very helpful.

On the other hand as you have suggested the thermostat may be malfunctioning.  In that case, you are doing the right thing.  Close the thermostat circuit and see if the boiler functions properly (watching it of course to keep temperature in tolerable range).  If shorting the thermostat solves the problem then there is no problem with the boiler. Replace thermostat.  Cheap,. End of story.

If it doesn't then my first suggestion is to replace the igniter.  Pex Supply on line has the part for $37.  It is Weil-McLain part #511-330-148.  Be patient when removing the present igniter the bolts will shear off if you apply too much torque.  Use penetrating oil and change direction every other trial until you get some movement.  The igniters will glow even when they are failing.  There is a resistance measurement which will help determine whether the igniter is malfunctioning but I do not recall how to measure or whether it involves removing the igniter to measure.

My second thought was to have your HVAC pro take the blower assembly off and see if there is debris in the throat of the boiler.  I had about 3/8" of a rust colored dust and grainy material about the cones in mine and vacuumed it out. It is about a one hour job (to take the blower assembly off) and you will need a replacement gasket for the junction.  It's called a boiler flange gasket and costs about $2 at Pex.  WM # 590-317-610.

It's a good idea to have a spare igniter handy in any case since they are said to have a 7 year or so lifespan.  I note your boiler is 7 years old.

Let me know if you need other info.  Sorry about the abbreviated earlier post.



 I was perplexed by very frequent lockouts in the coldest weather but have had none since I did these two things.

3ne

Gold GV 4 Lockouts

Tim; as noted in my first post it was the green power and the first led 'TSAT CIRC' which reads 'Frozen boiler water prevention activated'.  The owner's manual has basic trouble shooting but does not provide possible solutions to the LED trouble notices. I have a tester (with probes no clamps) so where do I connect or stick the probes to? the lead to the ignitor?  See photo of my circuit board all lit up when the unit is working. Only the first 2 flash when the unit shutss off nad the gas led also shuts off



I have noticed that my blower unit blades appears to be hitting  the housing now. I have wedged a tooth pick between the blue washers and that seems to balance the fan motor so that it runs quite again.

Pod; I will be purchasing an ignitor and see if it works.

Yesterday when I shorted the thermostat and my heat was working I noticed that the water temp never got up above 150F. Is that the set point temp for these units?

pod

adjusting water temp

http://www.weil-mclain.com/en/multimedia-library/pdf/weil-mclain-pdf/products/discontinued/discontinued-boilers/gv-boiler/gv3users.pdf



This link will open the users manual.  In the exploded view #5 is the water temperature limit switch.  It has a star wheel which can be turned to adjust the water temperature.  It is mounted high on the Left side of the cabinet and the pressure switch (a drum shaped cylinder) is attached to it.

Did the thermostat turn out to be the villain?

Tim McElwain

If you go to the

www.Weil-McLain.com website and look for the manual for your boiler it will give you charts 1 thru 8 which will give a more complete diagnosis and troubleshooting for the lights.



To test resistance cold (room temperature resistance) on the igniter set the meter to ohms disconnect the igniter from the board (unplug) place leads from meter on the two pins on the igniter harness,



For measuring amps it is easier if you have an amprobe which can clamp around the igniter wires when it is glowing to see what amperage you have should be between 4.25 to 4.75 anything outside the resistance or amperage replace the ingiter. With no amprobe then cut one of the igniter leads and place the meter on the AC amperage scale and connect in between the two wires then initiate a call for heat. The wires can then be reconnected with a wire nut. This will not affect the ingiters functions at all.

3ne

Gold GV 4 Locks

Right now the temperature setting on the wheel is at 190F but my gauge only reads 150F. I have the owners manual. Have not replaced my Thermostat but will do that today along with the ignitor when it comes in.

Tim McElwain

I am not talking about

the owners manual I am referring to the Installation and Operations Manual which is much more complete than owners manual.



Why are you replacing the thermostat and igniter that is just throwing parts at the problem and not solving it. Save your money and call for a tech who understands your system or contact Weil-McLain.

pod

lockouts

I see no problem with buying an igniter since having a spare is a good idea.  It is the part that needs replacement most often and if changing igniters solves the problem then it is a quick and easy solution.  If not, you have a spare for when the original one fails.

As for the discrepancy between the 180 degrees set on the star wheel and the 150 degrees shutoff point, I am puzzled.  If the cylindrical copper sensor (which connects to the star wheel apparatus via two capillary arms) has migrated out of its well on the exhaust manifold a little then the opposite will happen (temperature goes higher than set).  There is a clip to prevent this but it is flimsy. 

I would just try to move the star wheel through its excursion fully (low to high to low to desired) just in case one of the steps in the sensor has somehow bound up. 

anziconda

I bet you got it...

   I'll bet you just solved your problem...read my post above, it seems if whatever is signaling the boiler(t-stat in your case) isn't making perfect contact, it causes these things to do wierd stuff.   If you're jumping the t'stat wires and the boiler seems to run normally, I'd start with a new t-stat...their cheap!!!

Furra

Pressure switch makes briefly put then led flashes

I have read thru PODs entire thread and learned a lot, and I am not sure if this is the correct place to post a different type of lockout or non start.



My GV 5 Gold has for nearly all its 9 year life failed to make the pressure switch. The Pressure switch led come on briefly then goes out. If you put a volt meter on it, as I recall it s been a while, get close to 24 volts but not quite or gets there and then drops quickly. Anyway, I have replaced the pressure diaphram switch years ago and it continues. It is very intermittent. Sometimes working weeks other times trying I hate to say 20 times or more. Sometime after many trys it will start other times I get so sick from it I power down the system so I can chill.....literally.



I just tried taking off the input kinky hose off the plastic inlet piping to see if it was a weak motor. It failed the first try. The amps of this motor were tested some time ago and it was right around 1amp as I recall. It does sound different, can not describe just how when it starts sometimes but have not been able to connect the dots.



I did find part of a bees hive at the grating at the inlet and fished that out hoping but no go. Maybe some more extras are up at the squirrel cage assembly?



My system has 5 elbows and about 12 ft of pipe for the 4 inch inlet. I check from outside and find no extras. Since it still fails when the kinky hose is disconnect I guess this is not the trouble.



Can the trouble still be the ignitor? Is that any way in the mix prior to pressure switch closed?



I also checked the motor shaft to squirrel cage screw and it is tight.



Would the thermostat have any relation to a fail at this point?



Shutting system off sometimes helps with first start after but not always.



Very frustrating does anyone have experience with this particular fail?

Tim McElwain

Have you had a professional

check the differential pressure across the pressure switch with a digital manometer?

Has the boiler been serviced and cleaned?



Has anyone taken the combustion air blower apart and cleaned it?



Has anyone checked the gas pressure on the unit?



Have you tried completely disconnecting the vent system and see if it runs fine without it connected. This should be done by a professional. If it runs with vent pipes disconnected then you may have blockage in the vents.

Furra

Pressure switch makes briefly put then led flashes

Hi Tim McElwain,



Thank you for the response.



I did have a professional look at it but it was not failing at the time. I am an engineer and able to fix almost anything. I am not over confident and realize that I may have to call but I would not know who and if I can avoid that I need to. I was also part of a mass layoff and have not found work and can not afford any attempts to fix or not fix so I need to repair myself. I have repaired very sophisticated electromechanical systems so am rather competent but like others on here just need some pointers. I honestly can not afford a bill right now. I have been writing cover letters and resumes...rather character building it is.... I am having to break from that to be sure to fix this before it out right fails and we have no heat or hot water.



I could use an explanation of the pressures on each side of this switch. What is the red tube and the white tube and how to they behave during operation to make the switch.



I understand the differential concept. Not sure now what the set point is but I know it is not adjustable as others I have worked with.



A detailed theory of operation of this switch would be helpful and maybe help others too. For example.. Does the motor create suction just for intake air? What else is involve with the pressure switch.



The differential across the pressure switch has not been tested.



I would appreciate your help or anyone elses that wants to help someone in need.



This system has done this practically since day one. I know I should have had the installer fix it. They gave me a new pressure switch and that made no difference. It was and is so intermittent I made me to forget about it for times. Then it fails but then it always works again.



It should not be because it is dirty... not unless it was dirty from day one. or that is compounding another problem. I will clean it if I have to but if there is an easier solution I will concentrate on finding a job first.



I am about to order the gasket and clean the combustion air blower. I will order parts and need to know if the igniter is in the circuit for a fail at this point. I measured the resistance of the ignitor and it was 160 ohms. Is it the gasket that POD detailed a few post back for the combustion air chamber? As he wrote It's called a boiler flange gasket and costs about $2 at Pex. WM # 590-317-610.



The gas pressure has been checked a couple times and it was in spec. Does this have anything to do with a fail before pressure value is satisfied?



I did disconnect the kinky hose below the combustion air chamber at the end of the 4 inch intake pipe as mentioned I my initial post. I found a piece of bee hive that stopped at the coarse grate.



I put my hand over the hose and it has strong suction. During that time the pressure switch did not try and come on. When I released my hand the switch made correctly and the flame came on.



I have also thought It was the motor not producing enough air but it does spin up and create fairly strong suction. I know that does not measure it. It still fails with the hole off with out the impedance of the piping, 5 elbows and about 12 feet to get out the sill vent.



I have used the bell and gossett #20 oil that the installer gave me when the system was new to oil once a year. I read about using only synthetic and that troubled me some. I heard no one else post other than POD saying it was hard to find 20 weight oil. Check Bell and Gossett for this. They are pump makers so I don’t know if this is the correct oil.



It was John Menken that said to use only Anderol 486 synthetic. The B&G is a mineral oil, not synthetic.



I have always noticed when oiling the fan motor that one of the oil inlets accepts oil and the other does not.



Does the gas pressure have anything to do with a fail prior to pressure switch made?



What are the two pressures on each side of the switch? Red tube and white tube.



Please tell me the theory of operation in detail of this switch.



Again, I will appreciate very much anyone’s help. From reading the entire post the POD started I am rather impressed with the helping nature of this site. I did not see anything mentioned about cost which is a miracle this day and age. I am very capable and learn many new things so next time I can learn more. I would be glad to help anyone with any info that I could.



Thanks

Tim McElwain

What Integrated Boiler Control

do you have on this unit?



Do you have the Installation and Operation manual for the boiler?



What is your location?



Have you contacted Weil-McLain about this since it has been doing this since it was new?



How old is the unit?



Get me answers to those questions and I will walk you through a complete sequence of operation and troubleshooting.

pod

5 elbows sounds excessive

This is POD and I do not have  GV-5 as you know but part of my solution was to draw my intake air from the basement (I have my boiler on the first floor because I live on the water and the basement floods every few years) and forego the common connector which W-M intended to serve both intake and exhaust.  As long as your house is not too tight you can draw combustin air from inside the house.

Do you have elbows in the air intake side?  I would simplify the intake.

You are correct, however, that if it fails even when you disconnect the corrugated black hose then the impedance of the intake hosing is not the answer.  Nonetheless I would avoid so many elbows if possible since the pressure switch senses air flow into the blower.  If the pressure switch has been replaced and did not fix the issue, the fan motor may be suspect.  Failing motors are slow to get to speed I am told.  The fasco motor which comes with the gv-4 is up to speed within seconds.  When I took it apart I could load the shaft with my fingers (withthe fan running) and it would keep on pulling with good torque.

As a first step you could short out the pressure switch (with a jumper) and see if it fires and keeps going for a bit.  Of course you can't do that for a long time since incomplete combustion would raise CO levels, etc.  But for a few minutes nothing bad would happen and that would isolate the pressure switch part of the equation.  If the system locks out with the pressure switch shorted out (it is normally open and closes when the flow is sufficient from the blower) then the PS isnot the problem but the problem is upstream.  This is conceptually a way to isolate the pressure switch from the blower flow.  Remember the impedance to input air is only part of the load on the blower.  There is output resistance as well and five elbows sounds excessive.  It is hard to imagine five elbows over a relatively short 12 foot run.  Long term you need to use the recommended exhaust ducting of the recommended material but as a short experiment you could rig a more direct exhaust route (say with the flexible dryer aluminum hosing) and see how that affects things.  Obviously you can only use such a "trial vent" for a few minutes and should keep an eye on the temperature but for a 5-10 minute run it would be safe.

Good luck.  This is a good site and thread.  Folks are very helpful.  You need to keep a somewhat thick skin since inevitably you will be scolded for trying to do what a HVAC pro should be doing but as you note, finances don't always allow frequent repair trips from a pro.  Good luck keep us informed.

Summer is on the way and you will have time to fix it and get it right before next winter.