Condensing Boilers

Constantin

Speaking of which...

... have a look at Mad Dogs FAP listing. He's but one steam afcienado and he installed his system from scratch. The pride in his workmanship is evident in the pictures he has posted in the listing (well deserved, BTW).

Andrew Hagen (ALH)

Apparently

people building new homes in NJ are looking for steam. I haven't had anyone in MT mention it yet.

Every company gets to choose which portion of the market for which they'd like to provide products.

Is the problem that Viessmann doesn't make a steam boiler? Where does the hostility come from? I'm just trying to heat people's homes as efficiently as possible. Same as you.

-Andrew

Kevin__Flynn

Ken, thanks for playing...

... however, if you are going to consider the "Case History" on page 172 a Viessmann Ad than it is only fair the you do the same for the "Burnham Case Study" on page 94 and the article featuring the Weil on page 49.

As I said in my post though, Viessmann has done much better since January, 2005 with their advertising. I also said that their advertising is geared to getting people trained ie. the add on page 173.

Please be fair and tell the boys & girls here, the whole story.

You keep eluding to a notion that Viessmann is not Intelligent enough to manufacture a steam boiler, when in fact they do. We dont see them here in the states because, to my knowledge, the heat exchanger is made in a shape that ASME does not recognize, and the belief was that there would not be enough sales of the Paromat-ND & Turbomat to warrant the expensive approval process.

Now, as I have stated here on "The Wall" before, it is not my belief that the US Boiler Companies were incapable of engineering a boiler that was as good or better than the Euro counterparts. They knew however, that with extremely low fuel prices and several boiler companies fighting for the small 10% hydronic share of the US market that they wouldn't survive or be able to compete. Up until a couple years ago even saving 50% of a homeowners fuel bill wouldn't have made them blink.

So I do not doubt the US's ability to engineer. Some of the finest products made in the world originated here in the US. We all know they have the ability but they also know their market.

My frustration, Ken, is that you seem to be making it your lifes vocation to put Germany out of business. While it is possible and probably likely that Germany as a country could do things better, that is not a reason to slander a well built product that has been proven to do everything they say it will. You seem to only have this issue with Germany, as you saw fit to purchase a fine French Boiler for your own home. So forgive me for being confused.

In Germany, as I'm sure your aware, the hydronic market makes up about 90% +- of the entire heating market. So is it possible that the way you sell in that market is to have a better product than your competition and not the least expensive? In the past most American manufacturers have made very similar products. So how do you compete in a market where every boiler is essentially the same? You have to be more competitive than your competition. Lower prices, better giveaways, seamingly better warranties. Notice I said warranty and not gaurantee. Warranty is kind of like insurance, where the sales of many, pay for the misfortune of a few.

Viessmann has always sold their product not only on its high efficiency, but also its ease of service, low emmisions, and quality/longevity. In todays world we consider boiler efficiency as a means of saving the individual consumer money. But lets think about the bigger picture. In many New England cities for instance, Gas Utilities are creating Demand Side Management programs designed to decrease fuel usage. These programs are typicaly funded through ratepayers, and offer such things as rebates or incentives to end users to entice them to upgrade to high efficiency heating products, or to even tighten the envelope of thier buildings. They don't do this to save the consumer money, although it is a nice perk. They do it for a bigger picture. Most older larger cities have old gas distribution systems and while the cities become more and more populated the utilities are unable to increase the volume or pressure in these lines and believe it to costly to renew the infrasrtucture, so instead they opt to lessen the load. In some cases it is also mandated by the D.E.T. to lower emmisions as well.
My point is there are many reasons to reduce fuel usage and they are not always obvious.

So enough of my ranting.


Kevin Flynn

Brian

Well said Kevin

I think your post has been the one that has made the most sence of any.The only thing is when speaking of German technology don't forget Buderus.

Dobber

Joe Grosso

That was the Thursday night before Wetstock 4/Baltimore

which was the first time anyone from the Wall community knew about TLN. We got married two weeks before that Wetstock. IIRC, someone had said something really funny and I was trying to keep a straight face 'cause Ken was about to press the trigger.

My "chick-magnet" days ;-) are gone- and I don't miss them.

Ken_8

The

hostility comes from your rather pointed and blatantly baited question!

You asked a question about how many steam boiler installs I made. I answered many, you now wish to beat it to death and then suggest me of hostility. With questions like yours?

And no Andrew, if you knew anything at all about the business you would know scorched air is the main player, not steam or radiant nor hot water. Scorched air gets about 85% of the new work, FYI.

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Ken_8

No Ron,

Connie's opinions are based on his background. Not the other way around; as I assume mine and yours are too?

And Ron, I do not need your validation to confirm or refute my opinions. You wrote, "That doesn't mean I will let you have a free pass when I see a statement that you , or anyone else makes that I know is not true , misleading , whatever."

Ron I don't need your permission to write what I am passionate about. And none of us has any lock on "truth."

But I would prefer you stop playing the role of some arbiter of what you think is "truth," especially when it comes to "opinion" and simply let the reader determine what's written, without your editorializing my or anyone else's words.

I try and be as truthful and forthright as possible, always. If you suspect I lie, as you seem to suggest, maybe I need to review who I respect a lot. You would be one of those people, or so I thought...

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Andrew Hagen (ALH)

Please read

I asked how many new residential steam systems in general are being installed today.

This thread is so far off topic at this point that there's no point in continuing. Good luck holding back progress.

Have a good day, Ken.

-Andrew