Condensing Boilers

ScottMP

NO

He's kippin after a prolonged squawk ...

Norwegian Blue..

Beautifull plumage.....

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

Paul Pollets

X Parrot?

I don't know what an X parrot is, but Sam is a male Eclectus parrot. Perfect for Pirating!

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

Paul Pollets

Are you kidding??

"Wirsbo is owned by a european company, so that's marketing done to cover up a substandard level of technical expertise."

PEX is not an American invention. There are no extruders made in the US or Canada...they all come from Europe.

Are you saying that because it's American, it automatically converts to "overwhelming technical superiority" ? Not a very strong argument.

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

Unknown

I see I should start using "sarcasm" flags. Yes, I was kidding. Simply saving ken the time to respond.

Paul Pollets

Whew...

This is getting too serious.... I'd rather be a pirate.

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

DanHolohan

Please keep the tone civil.

Hear me?

Thank you.

Unknown

Steve you are

correct the radiant burner design burns much hotter than standard burner design.

Joe Grosso

The Ex-Parrot

is related to the Lumberjack.

Jeff Lawrence_24

Your problem

With the Vitocells, was it Viessmann or was it the shipping company somewhere along the line?

Viessmann stood up where they were supposed to. Any manufacturer worth our business would do the same, I hope.



To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

Mark Hunt

Monty Python

> I don't know what an X parrot is, but Sam is a

> male Eclectus parrot. Perfect for Pirating!

>

> _A

> HREF="http://www.heatinghelp.com/getListed.cfm?id=

> 104&Step=30"_To Learn More About This

> Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in

> "Find A Professional"_/A_






To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

Mark Hunt

Monty Python


did a skit about a dead parrot and John Cleese called it an "x parrot".

Mark H


To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

Mark Hunt

Not sure


about the smashed units, though I tend to believe that they were damaged in a warehouse.

You are correct, any company worth doing business with will stand behind their product.

Mark H

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

Steve Ebels_3

Thanks Timmie

Glad someone viewing this thread is thinking objectively

Unknown

Yep

got plenty of free hats and shirts from manufacturer giveaways at tradeshows . Completely different from a giveaway tied into the amount of product you sell from the same company , don't you think ? Sell a Gold , get a free jacket . Upgrade to a Plus 30 , get some cool boots . That , Ken , fits the defintion you graciously posted . I attended the Grand Unveiling of the Burnham V8 series a few years ago . Many weddings I've attended weren't catered like this shindig held at a swanky hotel - carving stations with many different kinds of meat , all the beer or top shelf drinks you wanted , guest speakers , giveaways - all on Burnham's dime . Would you consider this any different than a contractor appreciation day at Viessmann ?

I'll reword what I posted before - singling out the Euro manufaturers for a marketing plan that many US companies adopted is misleading .

I got it . Do you ?

Steve Ebels_3

Ken, are you deaf?

If you read my post a little more carefully you would understand that it was not a "Viessmann fishing trip". It was simply three guys who have become friends going out fishing. Jason owns the boat, we chip in for gas and bring the food. It has nothing to do with Viessmann. We became acquainted due to the fact that we both work in the field of hydronic heating. We didn't even talk about boilers, the fishing was too good and the scenery along the Sleeping Bear dunes was too awesome to even think about boilers.
What is it you don't understand about friends going fishing my good man?

Unknown

Sometimes

the facts just get in the way . Better just to skip over a few to prove a point . Oh well , he's Big Ken , and I love him just the way he is . It sure ain't boring when he's riled up .

Ron Schroeder_3

damaged verticels

were caused by the freight forwarder, Motor Cargo out of California. Of course Viessmann made good the tanks. Our customers always come first. We took on the carrier to no avail.

Steve Ebels_3

Nope

Boring it ain't. Good for all involved once in a while. Helps me out with my low blood pressure problem. ;}

Mark Hunt

Great pic Frank


and I know that Constantin is here because he chooses to be and is free to express his opinions.

Am I not free to question the reasoning behind those opinions? Of course he is free to refuse to answer. That's how it works here after all.

Imagine that your company hires a new employee. That employee left a company that he had worked at for 30 years. Not long after he starts with your company he starts telling you that you should do certain things more like his old company did. After a while you have to wonder why he left that other company.

Now if I had to make a guess as to the motivations of that new employee, I would guess $$$$$$$.

My best to you and the lovely Naoko!

Mark H

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

Mad Dog_2

Constantin

Brief and to the point. You are a sharp fellow - no doubt. You Certainly have an agenda and articulate it suberbly. I never met you, but will take others whom I trust (JCA, Bill Nye, Steamhead) on their word that you are a stand-up guy. However, do you realize that in many of your rants - although you make attempts to appear self-effacing and objective - your delivery and edge is VERY PRO-Eurocentric AND usually dismissive-to-quite-smug in your references to America and the American way of life and in particular, American Technology? You are MORE than entitled to your opinion here in America and at The Wall and I believe your posts challenge us all..keeping the fires burning. I think all of us here give German Technology its due, but heating and the world does not start or end at the German's feet. Although we are the most beneficent country on the globe, WE get "dissed" on a regular basis, but we can take it........We may be a little slow to take action, but once we do........the party's over.
Just my view of it. Mad Dog

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

Constantin

off-topic...

... once again, but very sweet. My best to you too.

Mad Dog_2

Depends on the chemical/biological environment

Mad Dog

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

Mad Dog_2

and...where did you receive your \"EXPERT: certification

not only in Euro-heating affairs....but The American scene as well? Don't count out Burnham, dude. They'll be back - in that arena, and in a big way! Mad Dog

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

Mark Hunt

Well thank you


I have been visiting your web page. Really intersting stuff there.

How DO you find the time???

Mark H



To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

Ken_8

Okay, I'll play Kevin

But since I don't keep my "Plumbing & Mechanicals" past the current month's issue, all I have handy is July, 2005. Admittedly, a somewhat random sampling but if what you suggest is so, should be better than nothing.

And guess what Kev, Weil McLain has no ads whatsoever, and Viessmann has taken two full (complete) pages (172-173). Those two pages probably cost more than taking all the "dealers" out fishing for a month in the Carribean!

Between the fishing expeditions and advertising budgets, no wonder the Viessmann is so pricy. Then too, I wonder how much it costs to ship 600 pounds of iron or steel from Germany to the U.S.

No one's suggestion it's not one helluva boiler. I merely suggest the price has little to do with the false notion of some "nationalistic" and burning desire to achieve superior engineering, but rather the fundamantal need to consume very limited natural resources - and, everything to do with the obvious; to make do with limited resources that we here in America, have far less need to be concerned with - and even less need to design for, until recently.

As Dan has pointed out, the other major reason we do not have the need or demand is because we were not bombed out 60 years ago and so the remaining steam systems, which are substantial in numbers, are still in tact.

A marketplace that those "oh so wonderful and ingenious Euro engineers" seem incredibly inept at doing anything with at all.

Could it be they don't have a clue?

In conclusion, let's not forget the score. Viessmann, 2 full pages of ads. Weil McLain, zero.

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

Ken_8

If I

Didn't have to work, had my own plane and drove a sports car that did 170 MPH, got my name plastered in all the high society tabloids and could sail around the world in my boat, I'd have lots of time to write the 500 word tomes as well.

I could also have the time to do research to make obscure points that validate my jaded point of view, make me look bright and well meaning and of course, aristocratic as hell, no matter how specious or nebulous that point of view was.

And if I didn't, I'd hire someone to do it for me (:-o)

Some people are here primarily for validation. The man who single-handedly invented PEX, or so he claimed, was a case in point. He too "enlightened" us Americans about Euro engineering and technological superiority.

Didn't he?

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

Andrew Hagen (ALH)

I think

it's less of an issue of WWII, and more an issue of American manufacturers becoming complacent. Then a company that's more advanced, for whatever reason, comes to the market. No one thinks those expensive boilers will sell, but then Americans show a willingness to buy a better product for a higher price. It will take some time, but Burnham and Weil McLain will come up to speed or continue to lose market share. The system is set up to the advantage of the American companies. Viessmann is the underdog in America, yet they're doing well.

I refuse to sell an inferior product just because it's made in America. That's nationalism.

It doesn't really matter what you or I think in the long run. The market will demand soemthing different as long as what's out there is not filling their needs. It cannot be stopped.

Weil and Burnham don't make bad boilers. They just got comfortable with what everyone always did. They weren't innovating. I, for one, welcome Viessmann for having awakened the American companies. If they didnt do it, who would?

-Andrew

Steve Ebels_3

Bingo!

If the likes of Buderus and Viessmann hadn't showed up where would the hydronics trade and industry as a whole be today. Think about life with no pex, no panel rads, no radiant heat. Just baseboard, antique rads and fan coils. I don't even like to contemplate it.

Ken_8

More Wishful Thinking?

You guys just keep coming back for more.

In 1936, G.E. made steam (something the euro's refuse to try and compete with)and water boilers that got 87% efficiency, and because of the unique "down-firing" design, had virtually no standby losses, making its operating efficiency and AFUE numbers virtually identical. They were as good as any non-condensing oil-fired boiler made in europe - to this day.

Dan has pictures of it in a shop manual he was kind enough to include in the "Library." There were many others who were way ahead of the curve, unlike the Euros, who too busy squabbling and killing their neighbors to do much serious engineering other than for weapons and pretty much stuck with coal and retro-tech heating junk - which allied bombs pretty much eliminated from the lansdscape.

The shell-head burner was the first real shake up in the burner line and of course the Euro's again were too busy murdering each other to use the American technology that they copy to this day with overly complicated flame retention head burners - that cost half again as much as America's superior designs and engineered burners utilize.

The G.E. dropped the designs and manufacturing because of something the Euro's never had. That being cheap fuel. in 1936 the cost of a gallon of # 2 fuel in the U.S. was under 16 cents. Winkler, Timken and Shell head burner technology was engineering at its very best. I still have over 10 G.E. boilers in service getting close to 85% efficency that are over 55 years old.

I wonder if you could tell me how many Euro boilers you could show me either here, or in Europe that get 85% efficiency, are over 50 years old and still running reliably?

Our U.S. fuel costs have been so low, that all the wonderful marketing on earth could not justify the manufacturing costs of the Winkler., Timken or G.E.'s boilers over any time frame; until our fuel costs started an upward spiral.

No one wants to admit that the only reason the Euro's make high efficiency boilers is because they have to - for basic survival; and no one wants to admit we really could not justify high efficiency units, when we have scorched air dominating the market, fuel costs still among the cheapest per income average on earth and reserves we won't even bother to touch.

The superior engineering of the G.E. units 70 years ago, compared to anything the Euro's have today, died because of two things; first ther purpose was obliterated by no real economic need (fuel being so cheap) and secondly, they failed to grasp what the Euro's now understand so very well: Excellent marketing overcomes virtually all other obstacles - every time.

Too bad G.E., Timken and Winkler, never learned what the Euros have lately...


To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

Andrew Hagen (ALH)

But

it's 2005. How many new residential steam systems are being installed these days?

-Andrew

Unknown

I guess

keeping the tone " civil " is a selective term here , huh ?

Mad Dog_2

Frank you look like Dan Akroyd

in that pic - hey he was a wild and crazy guy...a chick magnet....Lovely lady, your wife. Mad Dog

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

Ken_8

Take a look at the post time/date of my post - and Dan's

Before you wind up shooting yourself in the foot.

And Ron? Why the jump on the "get Ken" bandwagon?

Have you nothing constructive to add here?

Or just working overtime on trying to incite a riot?

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

J Matthers_2

Wastefull?

Have you stopped to think about the fuel, vehicle wear, salt appilcations and man hours spent on snow removal. Plug those numbers and I think you would be suprised.

Ken_8

Obviously

A helluva a lot more than you(:-o)

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

Constantin

yup...

Your observation about not letting facts getting in the way of Mr. Secors opinions had me laughing for a good while.

Perhaps I'm the only one who finds it amusing to have Mr. Secor rant and rave about the potential impropriety of a fishing trip by Mr. Ebels and a Viessmann rep, yet accept an all-expenses paid trip to China?

Or how about his preference for US brands and steam heating systems in particular, yet ending up installing an European condensing oil boiler into his new home? At least Mad Dog practices what he preaches and installs an American-made steam system in his own home.

I guess I could wait wait for Ken to come up with some facts to back up some of his opinions, but that might be a long wait... but like you said, don't let the facts get in the way of a good story!

Ken_8

Pah-

-lease...

In ground pools are a necessity, beer is a necessity.

Snow melt is too - if you live in the Artic.

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

Unknown

No Ken

I really don't have much to add here , and I'm not on any perceived " bandwagon " . Sorry that I can't agree with everything you say like a few others do without questioning some of the posts you make , while staying silent when you go on a personal rant that has not a thing to do with the issue at hand . That aint me . I consider you one of the smartest men I've met , and a gentleman in person . That doesn't mean I will let you have a free pass when I see a statement that you , or anyone else makes that I know is not true , misleading , whatever . You would do the same for me .

You're right , your post was indeed way before Dan's friendly reminder to keep it civil . Sorry about that Ken .

Now , what about you ? Do you have anything constructive to add , or will you just keep knocking Constantin's background to refute his opinions ?

Accuse me of inciting a riot ?

That is funny....... and maybe ironic ?

Constantin

Matt,

If I come across as smug, euro-centric, etc. please rest assured that I'm not trying to. After all, I am very happy living in this country...

Furthermore, I don't think I have posted that state of the art in heating technology starts and ends in Germany, as you seem to think. Like Ken pointed out, the GE co. had developed condensing gas boilers in the post-war years, then dropped them from the menu because energy was so cheap.

As best as I can tell, state-of-the-art building technology is being developed the world over with no one country with a leadership position in all fields... and that's a good thing, IMO, since it encourages trade and competition.

For example, I look at the Austrian, Korean, and Japanese modulating oil burners as just one technology that could perhaps change the dynamics of the oil business. Similarly, the US is at the forefront of developing low-sulfur fuels that will allow low-mass, single-chamber condensing boilers to enter the US marketplace and revolutionize hydronic oil-heating the way that the Munchkin, Vitodens, etc. did.

Besides, there is nothing wrong with importing good technology from wherever it can be found, as long as the prices are reasonable and the trading partners friendly. If someone besides an American manufacturer makes the best gas valves, why shouldn't US boiler manufacturers be allowed to buy them? Similarly, if Intel manufacturers the best computer chips, why shouldn't they be sold to friendly trading partners?

As I see it, the consumers will always benefit from competitive marketplaces where there is a lot of choice. Thus, I look forward to Burnham releasing their first fully-condensing boiler. After all, they have probably learned a lot from their experience with the G-series Opus, which was their first step in that direction.

The more differentiated product there is out there for a professional to choose from, the more likely it is that the perfect boiler can be found for every application. That, along with a proper installation ought to provide the client with the maximum benefit possible and many years of comfortable heat.

Unknown

We see many

downfired GE boilers in Levittown and their AFUEs are high , even for the present day . Fuel savings from a GE to a Weil is minimal . All of them were converted to Beckett some years ago . I never saw an original setup , but long time homeowners know how much oil they burned yearly over decades - with and without the original burner . They do remember you could not hear the original burner running right in the kitchen .

With this type of technology that is decades old , how come we don't see anything new like this ? Quiet , efficient , sounds like a no brainer . Surely by now the kinks can be worked out that made changing the burners a priority . Could it be there isn't a big enough market to make it viable and profitable for a boiler co. ?

At $2.50 a gallon for number 2 , the idea of no real economic need for these systems don't hold true anymore .