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Condensing Boilers
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Steve Ebels_3
Member Posts: 1,291
Explain to me how Viessman manages to drop the flue gases from 1,600-1,700* down to the return water temp in one and a half inches of space while traveling in excess of 40mph. This happens while passing through a gap of .8mm BTW. Stainless being the poor conductor that it is, supposedly, this would seem to be some type of black magic that defies the laws of physics. Personally, I think it's the radiant burner design in the Vitodens that changes what one would think to be typical heat transfer.
I'm just saying there are different ways of addressing heat transfer that take into account the different materials available for use. I don't think anyone would argue that generally speaking, a titanium bearing stainless steel alloy is going to be more durable than practically any other metal.
I'm just saying there are different ways of addressing heat transfer that take into account the different materials available for use. I don't think anyone would argue that generally speaking, a titanium bearing stainless steel alloy is going to be more durable than practically any other metal.
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Comments
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Condensing Boilers
Condensing Boilers, is that the way to go? I went to a supply house and was told that the Weil-Mclain Ultra was better than the Viessmann Vitodens 200 WB2 6-24 and the Buderus GB142 in price, performance and maintenance. Is this true?
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Consider where the statement is coming from...
As far as that distributor is concerned, the WM Ultra may be the best boiler because- WM is the only manufacturer he reps
- he has a very good profit margin on the Ultra
- he is married to the local WM rep
- etc.
If you compare the Ultra to the GB142, what credible differences exist? Both have Aluminum HX's, modulating burners, etc. One difference the Buderus people might bring up is that their boiler has 20 years of implementation experience in the EU, while the WM Ultra is a relatively new design and might yet suffer some teething pains.
The Vitodens is in a different league as it sports a thick, 316Ti stainless HX, very low electrical power consumption, etc. Thus, this boiler may better withstand harsh water conditions or be better suited for remote sites where off-grid power is expensive. Plus, the general consensus is that the Vitodens by virtue of its construction is likely to be the longest-lasting condensing boiler.
Also consider the NTI Trinity, which can modulate from 400kBTU-25kBTU/hr (16:1 modulation!!!!) or the HTP Munchkin which is another economical stainless HX option. Then there is the Triangle-Tube prestige series with its clog-resistant HX design, or the MZ Boiler with its bullet-proof reputation.
By all the accounts, owners and installers have liked all condensing boilers listed above. Mike T. and others have documented 40%+ fuel savings over 80% AFUE boilers, they make an excellent DHW heater via an indirect tank, and their installation flexibility usually allows you to put them in many places besides the basement. Your supply house rep may not know any different, but I would take his/her statements about equipment in the future with a grain of salt.0 - WM is the only manufacturer he reps
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viessman BOILER
aluminum verses stainless is a no brainer whats more durable and also viessmann is 316ti stainless witch is a medical grade stainless(((((( oh and thats right viessmann makes a boiler not a water heater for the wall))))))))))0 -
Warranty
> aluminum verses stainless is a no brainer whats
> more durable and also viessmann is 316ti
> stainless witch is a medical grade
> stainless(((((( oh and thats right viessmann
> makes a boiler not a water heater for the
> wall))))))))))
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Warranty
If 316ti stainless is such a wonderful heat exchanger then why does it only have an eight year warranty as opposed to the twenty five year warranty on the GB-142.
Dobber0 -
Simple...
... the marketplace in the US has never demanded that kind of warranty previously. Americans have a love affair with warranties, taking them as indicator of quality, when all they usually represent is a probability calculation. This is all the more hilarious considering that Americans move every 7 years on average, warranties are usually not transferable, etc.
Viessmann also offers a much shorter warranty on its wares in Germany than it does over here (lifetime on the Vitocell, for example). The reason? People don't expect long warranties over there, they expect the equipment to last a long time w/o the benefit of a warranty.
I would argue that a 316Ti stainless HX is a much more durable and less reactive material than the Aluminum found inside the GB142 or the Ultra given its field of application. However, both types of metals can be made to deteriorate under the right water conditions. Given a proper installation, maintenance, etc. both kinds of HX's will outlast the moving components in a boiler.0 -
> aluminum verses stainless is a no brainer whats
> more durable and also viessmann is 316ti
> stainless witch is a medical grade
> stainless(((((( oh and thats right viessmann
> makes a boiler not a water heater for the
> wall))))))))))
The aluminum heat exchanger has almost 20 great years under its belt. How is that not durable?
If the boiler lasts 20 years or less, you should be looking to upgrade to the most modern equipment at that time anyway.
I'm not knocking the Vitodens. Its amazing engineering. But not needed in every app. We all know this.
I think the point of the responses here is to say that the W/M Ultra does not surpass these other two German boilers. These products all have their place.
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Dobber
The best warranty out there is the one you never need. THAT my good man, is a fact.0 -
All mentioned get the job done
None! are garbage. Different price levels enable us to give a customer choices. I worked with a few mentioned and intend to try them all sooner or later. Mad Dog
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That sounds like 40% bran flakes ,to me.*~/:)
why not use zippo tooth paste its 60% better
....
propaganda comes in far more subtle pack agings...:)
i am not saying the ultra isnt a oki dokie boiler just a guys gotta watch out for information and verification of its source.
you might get an expert in yo yo boilers telling you that things that you know can be done cant etc. and if you are signifigantly baffeled with the B.S. end up beliving it. i would like you to have another option or two, try the box with 100% bran flakes then you wont go wondering where the other 60 % magically vanished prior to your purchase.0 -
Aluminum
has a thermal conductivity of 164 btu/hr, stainless 19, copper 411. Easy to see which would move heat from flame to water good, better and best
hot rod
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All other thing being equal.........
That would indeed be true Hot Rod. The difference comes in how a manufacturer applies that bit of knowledge and engineers his product to deal with the idiosicracies of the chosen HX material. AL is a much less expensive and easier material to work with than 316Ti, hence lower cost. As we are all aware, that is not the Viessmann way. It has to be the best or it doesn't make it out of the design lab.0 -
Your entire first paragraph...
is outlandish and based on pure poppy-cock and obviously untrue.
Your jaded view of what Americans think, and why, is one more example of why your opinion is less than worthy of even minimal consideration.
Manufacturer's warrantees demonstrate a company's commitment to quality assurance, nothing more.
You also know the 7 year figure is an average, not a mean.
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Have to agree Ken
If a company is secure about its products longevity a warranty should be no problem.
Are we to assume that NO German product is poorly made and to ask for a warranty is insulting ?
Or is it that America is such a large market that we ask for a warranty to prove a companys commiment.
Your comment really does come across as insulting to the American market and to the American consumer. Are we really that under educated in this country, in your eyes, that we require a companys written warranty ??
Scott
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Blatantly
untrue statement.
Making an aluminum boiler block last and warrant that material, as most have done, exceeding the S.S. maker's warranty, as W/M for one does, IS validation of superiority, not marketing hype, which alone suggests an inferior thermal transfer block is somehow "superior" to a boiler with better warranty AND far superior thermal conductivity?
Be serious.
But as I've always said, "Great marketing will overcome superior engineering every time."
Case in point.
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The way they do that Steve,
Is by taking you and your son fishing (as you just posted), buying your loyalty with perks, feeding you the company line, providing you with leads that you alone get because you are their poster boy - and then expect us who choose to remain independent, to accept your testimony as some sort of unbiased praise and certification of something that never was, and could never be.
That's how they do it Steve.
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Warranty example
When we started selling Husqvarna chain saws in the hardware store (1978) their warranty was 30 days for professional use. The American mfr's offered a full year or better. Some people balked at the discrepancy and bought the Homelites and McCullochs that we carried also. Word started getting around however and inside of a couple years the ratio of European chainsaws to American built was on the order of 15:1 saleswise. The loggers found out that what I said in the other post here was true. "The best warranty you can get is the one you never need." Our little store in a town of 250 people now sells over 500 Husqvarna saws each year and no saws of US/Mexican origion.
The other thing that I found in this particular case was that the Swedes were more than willing to standup at the plate and admit they had a problem when they did. In those instances the stated warranty was tossed out the window and they took care of it regardless of the product age. This was the polar opposite of our experience with the US manufacturers.
I'm not saying the US mfr's are dumb or lack the capability to build equivalent products to the European firms. The US mind set is just different. I'll argue that the extended warranty is more marketing hype than anything else. This is due to the perception of US mfr's that the US customer won't buy anything unless it has a lengthy "protection plan".
One has only to look at the auto industry to see this is not true. Toyota's warranties are much more abbreviated than those of the Big Three, (soon to be Smaller Three if they don't change) but whose market share is growing? I think the US consumer is much more adept at spotting quality products than our companies here realize.0 -
Gentlemen,
When I walk into a Home Depot and see "good-better-best" gas-fired water heaters manufactured under the "GE" name by Ruud/Rheem in Alabama (or whoever it is these days) with three different price points for almost identical products, what am I to think?
That, somehow, the tank construction of the 10-year warranty unit is different from the 5-year model? That the curved nipple at the end of the cold water inlet tube is going to do its "turbo" thing and keep the tank clear of sediment? That an extra anode rod (if fitted) will be the end-all in corrosion protection?
Of course not. If I want my water heater tank to last a long time, nothing gets around annual maintenance, monitoring, replacement of the anode rod, etc. I imagine the average American knows this as well. Yet, the 10-year model is popular enough for HD to keep selling it.
Similarly, look at the recent push by up-and-coming car manufacturers bent on entering the US market: Everything is warrantied "with the longest warranty in the industry" to convince consumers that these cars are reliable. Yet, can these cars be sold for an equivalent price to a comparable Toyota or Honda that have a shorter warranty but a demonstrated track record re: reliability? Of course not.
Next, try going into any big box store and buying a big-box item like a TV, VCR, etc. without some sales drone trying to upsell you on a warranty that, most likely, you don't need. Would they try selling these warranties if Americans weren't buying them? Would they sell these warranties if, on average, they weren't immensely profitable for the companies doing the selling?
My comment about German vs. US consumer expectations is just that, an observation on the cultural differences between German vs. US consumers. It has nothing to do with the quality of products manufactured in Germany or the US. IMO, the quality of the product has nothing to do with the origin of the product, and everything to do with how the product was actually put together.
As others have said, the best warranty is the one you don't need at all. I would never take a warranty on a product to be an indicator for quality, as the company handing out warranties may simply go out of business to avoid its liabilities in the future.0 -
Perks don't make that radiant burner and radial HX work!
Steve's description of the process is both good AND realistic. When you measure and find 96+ percent of your consumed energy making its way to the heating system via a poorly conducting HX you do start wondering about "black magic".
When the only thing in a constantly circulating, proportional flow (TRVd) system that has changed is the boiler and you find your radiators running significantly cooler in the same conditions, you do start wondering about heat transfer mechanisms as described in physics.
When you reduce fuel consumption by more than 40% over a heating season yet "by the numbers" this reduction borders on impossible, you realize that it just works! Why? How?
When it comes time for your first ever annual cleaning/inspection and it takes only the simplest of hand tools and 30 minutes of your time you say, "I'm sold!"0 -
Units
There are some units missing there. Thickness is important.
316 Stainless:
113 (BTU*in)/(h*ft^2*F)
1100-H14 Aluminum sheet:
1530 (BTU*in)/(h*ft^2*F)
But how thick are the heat exchanger walls? I doubt the thickness makes up for it completely, but I'm sure it makes up for a good bit of it.
-Andrew0 -
Dan wrote not long ago
that he thinks it might be time for people to stop expecting boilers to last 20 years. His rationale IIRC is that heating technology is getting so much better so quickly that replacing boilers every 10-15 years will produce major energy savings.
But that seems to be the way people think about heating. Like it or not, they remember the old coal boiler that was converted to oil or gas and lasted 50 years or whatever. It probably wasn't very efficient on any of those fuels, but it sure lasted a long time. Every customer on every boiler job I've ever done wanted to know the warranty details, and some have chosen one boiler over another because the warranty looked better. Boilers aren't something people show off to friends and neighbors the way they do with cars and other things (but they just might if it's one of Ron Jr's installations, or Ken's, or Dan Foley's, or anyone else on the Wall who can make piping look like fine art).
I have always thought that a good boiler is a good boiler, and that proper installation counts the most. Reliability is also a major consideration, and the German boilers as far as I know have pretty much proven themselves here. But we all know some other condensing boilers have had teething problems- which were eventually worked out, but I know of very few customers who would consent to being the "guinea pig" on a 5-degree night. And I sure don't want to put them in such a position.
I went to a local W-M Ultra training session a while back, and the instructor acknowledged the difficulty of selling a design like this when people were pre-sold on cast-iron. But when the Ultra's reliability is proven over time I think they'll sell a lot of them.
Do I think German boilers are inherently better? Not necessarily. We all know American manufacturers are coming out with new boilers that can match the Germans' performance for a better price. But Buderus, Viessman etc. have had more time to perfect their designs, and that does count for something.0 -
Careful there Kenneth........
You are drawing erroneous conclusions as to the reason I was in the boat with the Viesmann rep. The simple facts are
A. We are good friends who also happen to have a business relationship.
B. We have many common interests
C. We both love to be out on the water
D. We both really enjoy sinking a hook into a salmon It's really no more complicated than that.
Jason is first class as far as reps go. I have never heard him make a disparaging comment about another manufacturers product. He simply states the merits of his products (which are many more than just Viessmann) and lets the chips fall where they may.
BTW Ken, Are you always this grumpy on Mondays or are you just jealous that I got to catch some salmon?0 -
That's an interesting statement. we're up to the mid 90's in efficiency right now. How much higher can it really go? You can't get more heat out of the fuel than it contains (well, it contains more, but you'd need a nuclear reaction to release any more of it).
Dan likens it to getting a new car I believe, but there are big differences. You don't get a new car every 5-10 years because of fuel efficiency. You get a new car because you're wearing the old one out. You're throwing it over pot holes and up and down hills and who knows what else. A boiler is sitting there, burning. Its lifecycle should be much longer. How long would your car last if you just idled it in a driveway and kept up on the oil and filter changes? Follow up, how many more moving parts are there in a car than a boiler?
If you get a 10% efficiency increase switching out a boiler, how long will it take to pay back? Could you have regained your old efficiency with good maintenance? Depends on fuel costs, sure, heat load of the building, etc. Maybe in ten years everyone will have to switch to ethanol or biomass burners.
But still, I think it's unrealistic to expect people to trade boilers even every twenty years. If that happens, then maintenance isn't being kept up on. And there is only so much further we can push efficiency. Long-term reliability for boiler is, and should remain, a major consideration, IMHO. I'm certainly not going to advise any of my clients to assume a twenty year lifespan for a boiler.0 -
so many of these inferior warranteed viessmann heat exchangers are heading south earlier than others, I guess?
I personally don't know anyone who's ever had to switch out a viessman for poor performance or lack of longetivity. Do you?
How many warranty claims have the viessmann guys here ever had to call in? How many failures outside the warranty period?
Real-world feedback trumps theory every time. So lets get some going!0 -
That's also true
but as fuel costs rise, payback times will shrink.
For the record, I have a 22-year-old Burnham V-14 that still runs so well it's not worth replacing- yet. Who knows what the future will bring?0 -
I'm with Ken and Scotty here....
Constantin.....America just seems to get the short end of the stick a little too often for my liking. THe German boilers are both excellent and we have installed a few. However, The American Manufactuers have made great strides and will continue to. If there are Americans buying High quality German Boilers, the American Manufactuers can fill that demand as well, and I believe they will. I'm hoping Burnham comes out with a Wall hung Condenser soon. The European/American cultural and lifestyle differences are many-fold, but I think that is another subject. Mad Dog
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OK
My total Viessmann warranty claim experience.
Two "failures", both which occured on Vito's
The first one was a wierd howl fron the variable speed circ on a 6-24. Viessmann sent a new circ and pressure bypass valve. Never did find anything in the circ or bypass that would explain the noise.
The second one was the draft inducer on another 6-24. It was making an intermittent rattling sound. Disassembly revealed that some of the inducer fan blade fins had pieces broken out of them causing an out of balance situation. It had obviously ingested a "foreign object". The whole assembly was furnished no charge, no questions asked.
That's it, the total list of parts failures I have had with all the Viessmann products we have ever installed.0 -
As I've mentioned many time before,
We (the U./S.) didn't need nor could any manufacturer justify making exotic boilers. At 58 cents a gallon for oil or 35 cents a therm, who could justify making a boiler that only lasts 25 years and improve efficienct by a measely 15%?
At 2.50 a gallon and 2-bucks a therm, a few of us are paying attention, to some degree.
As Dan pointed out many times, we didn't have all our heating systems bombed out in WWII, so why change? Change what? The Euro's had no choice. With no fuel and no buildings, the somewhat higher efficiency was not some great feat of engineering, it was a lesson in abject reality. There was no "competition" from the euros, in reality, there still isn't.
When our fuel costs became high enough, we created a solution. As much as we **** about paying $2.50 a gallon for # 2, compared to the average wage in the U.S., the cost is still dirt cheap! The fuel to wage ratio in europe is much higher, and that's what drives the technology, not some superior engineering or wonderful designs.
And lets remember something else. Europe does not have anywhere near the designs and sophisticated heating systems urban Germany would suggest we all should have. Only in the urban areas of europe are these "better" systems used. The rest of europe is still burning wood, coal or uses district heating. Most of the old historic buildings have no heat whatsoever!
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Know how many
W/M Ultra's I've had ANY problems with?
None. Nada. Zip. Nichts.
When the euros start making a decent steam boiler, get back to me please...
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?
Based on what?
Going from 87 to 94%?
Pah - lease.
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Taking customers fishing
I take offense at the suggestion that the reason that my heating partners choose Viessmann products is that they receive perks from Viessmann representatives. Clients, yours and ours, make buying decisions not because we trot out a long list of features but because we have asked the requisite questions and shut our mouthes long enough to hear them tell us what benefits and values they are looking for, and it is the customer who determines the value not we.
If we hear the customer's needs and commit ourselves to meeting and exceeding their expectations and we choose suppliers and manufacturers that share that same committment, then we are on our way to win win relationships.
It is my mission as the Technical Service Adviser in Langley to ensure that my contractor partners and their clients receive that value. I hope you all choose Viessmann products because you have discovered how they represent real value to your clients not because of some German mistique.
BTW,I too invite my installer partners to come fishing in Ucluelet. I do this in appreciation for their working with me to provide seamless customer care to their clients, not to bribe them to buy more of our product. If this looks like a cheap bribe and those who have come along feel coerced let them say so and I will discontinue the practice.
As, in all things, I partner with my partners. Each guest gets to pay their share.0 -
Ken ?
How many Ultras have you installed so far ? And I ask the same question to whoever installs condensing equipment . It's all about the ratio - how many installed systems to how many callbacks , failures , whatever . Over a period of time .
Looking at it from a homeowner's perspective , I've been sold a bill of goods that is approaching the highest efficiency possible ( with a huge pricetag ) , I would definitely want the system to last into at least a 2nd decade , hopefully problem free .0 -
Not only is it
cost of fuel, but it's also based on scale. How much fuel are you burning? A little efficiency gain can save a lot of $$ if you're melting 5000sf of snow.
I dont know that I agree with the "burn it till it's gone" mentality. There's no time like the present to begin using fuel intelligently.
Insulating the structure is much more important than 94% vs 87% combustion efficiency....not that combustion efficiency isn't important. Also, the modulation is important. If you can match the boiler's output to the load more closely, you'll save more fuel than the combustion efficiency numbers tell you.
-Andrew
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Not just by going from 87%
to 94% combustion/condensing efficiency but by modulating the burner down to closely match the load and thereby avoid cycling losses. This of course takes a microprocessor and feed back sensors that cost a little more than a wall thermostat. If we as professionals cannot see value in that...0 -
You have captured the essence of my point...
Without numbers, Steve's comment is not worth the space it was posted in.
But so as to not play his "game," around 30 Ultras.
I could have said Munchkins. Around the same number of installs. Not one problem - ever.
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\"Your Heating Partners\"?
I think we've already figured out the relationship.
I wouldn't press it. At least not here.
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Andrew,
If your melting 5,000 S.F. of snow, the notion of doing so "efficiently" is the quintessential definition of logic gone bad.
Having a snow melt system is the epitomy of waste and gluttony, with perhaps one possible exception; on the apron of the only firehouse in Antartica during a blizzard and your house is on fire and your wife and kids are all snowed inside and they live 10 feet from the firehouse - where the snow melt system just so happens to be installed - and the snow is 20 feet high all around the snowmelt pathway - but not actually on the snowmelt strips...
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...then you haven't observed the results!
Measuring is believing.0 -
Back to you Peter
Now that we highjacked your post and made a mess of it...........
As you can probably tell from my posts on this thread I really like Viessmann products. My experience with the performance of their boilers illustrates to me that they make an excellent product. There is no company in the boiler industry that I have dealt with that conducts its business at the level of Viessmann. Customer service is not a goal for them, it is a mission. They design their products in one way, the best they know how. No corners are cut, no expense is spared. It shows in their pricing.
For me, an aluminum block boiler is OK, if, and that is a big if, it is maintained properly. Keeping the PH of your boiler water in the correct range is going to be critical to getting satisfactory life from the boiler using an aluminum HX. For a good example of water and aluminum interaction, go to your nearest boatyard and look at the lower units of the motors which have been left in the water with no maintenance. They are covered with pits and blisters. That's what happens when AL is in constant unprotected contact with good ole H2O. It is a natural occurence which can only be slowed down by good maint.
That fact is enough to make me leary of these products. Most of the boilers I see are lucky if they get serviced every five years let alone yearly. I would probably recommend an Ultraor a GB to someone who I knew was fussy about servicing their stuff. Most people however, are not. I can't in good consience sell them something that I have to make excuses for up front. That being said, I'm sure there are many owners who will be diligent with the service and they'll do just fine with AL heat exchangers.
So I would say, buy whatever you can afford, be it AL or 316Ti and maintain it properly. Read the manual and see what the manufacturer recommends. In fact get a copy of the manual for all boilers you are considering and read through them BEFORE you buy the boiler. That may help more than what all of us put together have to say.0
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