Condensing Boilers

Constantin

Allow me to disagree...

So the Euros are too poor to justify paying $$$ for fuel but they can afford expensive boiler technology? We've been down this path before, the fuel prices over there are not much different and when you cannot afford high fuel/wage ratios (or whatever measure you want to throw that way), you cannot afford a high-tech, efficient boiler either. The money has to come from somewhere, after all.

The US has had a love affair with AC since the post-war era, and adding heating to said AC was so simple that by today 93% of American households eschew your love for steam heating and elect to heat/cool with hot/cold air instead. The US prefers low-mass, stick-built homes, the EU prefers high-mass concrete. Etc. There are many reasons that the EU and US heating preferences evolved in different directions... but the war may have done nothing more than usher in the ear of warm-water as opposed to steam heating in the old EU.

Besides, Mike T. must have been dreaming when he managed to go from a 80% AFUE CI boiler to a 94% AFUE Vitodens, yet saved 43.6% in fuel on a HDD-adjusted basis? Tremendous savings are to be had from condensing appliances, even more so if they can modulate their output. You should know, considering that you elected to go with a EU-designed and built boiler that has a heat-wise burner just for the US market.

I also find your condemnation of alternative heating systems like district heating all the more amusing, considering that there are a couple of US cities that have district heating themselves... nor do I understand why district heating is supposed to be a sign of backwardness. When used in conjunction with electrical power production (now being reborn as residential CHPs), it can leverage some of the waste heat a regular power plant produces.

Similarly, there has been a resurgence of interest in wood/coal/etc. heating appliances in the US now that the current crop of heating fuels have become more expensive. Would I call such a customer backward? Not really, even if the price of these fuels/heating systems is currently usually higher than the fuels they are supposed to replace (at least according to Scott Lutz in PA who has a couple of coal customers, for example).

Constantin

.... it couldn't be that simple?

Steve, naturally the Viessmann rep was handing out the orange cola with the silver pills on this outing too, right? :-P

Joe Grosso

I'm not

switching to gas, Ken.

Andrew Hagen (ALH)

True

and I agree wbout the wastefulness of snowmelt, but I mentioned it simply as an example of scale affecting payback.

-Andrew

Mad Dog_2

Best point of the whole thread, Ken

Much of Europe is STILL heated in the ordinary fashion. MY supplier has a place just outside of Vienna in a medium sized town...they still use COKE!!!!!!! I think we all give the Germans their due - they cannot be denied - but lets keep the proper perspective. Mad Dog

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Steve Ebels_3

The deal is.............

He buys the gas, we bring the food, it's his own boat, not a charter. The menu on this trip was ham and salami subs with lettuce, provelone, tomato and mayo on a homemade bun along with a bag of Cheetos and other assorted and sundry munchies, a few candy bars and a 6 of Sam Adams to wash it down with. Does it seem to you that food tastes better out on the water, or is it just me?

No pills or bug juice needed for a good time salmon fishin'.
In fact no pills or bug juice needed anytime period.

Ken_8

Shhhh.

Don't wake up Connie.

And whatever you do, don't let him know the reason fuel appears so "inexpensive" is because the outrageous taxes the Euros, especially the Germans must pay (while they suffer the highest unemployment rates in the free world!) is self-subsidized by the taxpayers indirectly. The true cost per gallon is about four times the pump price, just subsidized by government taxation - which comes from the same people anyhow.

Shhhhhh.

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Constantin

Don't take offense...

... by his own admission, Ken's experience with Viessmann is minimal, so his criticisms of Viessmann ought to be taken with a grain of salt. Furthermore, Ken online personality has a tendency to swing from sharing his immense knowledge in a friendly way to attempting anything he can think of to make your blood boil.

It's too bad that we can't have more of the former and less of the latter. The personal attacks, innuendo, etc. are getting old.

jerry scharf_3

You may not like the tone that Constantin took

But I can tell you he's right on when he talks about how warranttes are set. I have worked for equipment manufacturers in other industries as both an engineer and a marketeer, and the warrantee is more of a marketing issue than a equipment reliability issue.

When Mercedes, BMW, Honda and Toyota have 5 year powertrain warranties and Hyundai has a 7 year one, do you really believe that the Hyundai powertrain has a 40% longer average lifetime? Hyundai made a cold numbers tradeoff that paying out more in warrantee claims would allow them to combat the perception of inferior quality, allowing them to sell more cars and make more money.

In the case in point, WM correctly decided that there would be concern about this "newfangled" technology when introducing the Ultra. This would allow competitors/reps without products in this range to use FUD (fear, uncertainty and doubt) to badmouth the Ultra. By putting the long wattantee on the HX, they were combatting a marketing problem they forsaw in the market. It worked, and the Ultra has received the market share that it's solid performance deserves. I believe without the long HX warrantee, they would have seen much more resistance to this product for it's US introduction.

On the other hand, Viessmanns are perceived as one of the best built boilers in the world. With this perception, and the equipment to back it up, they have nothing to prove and set a warrantee that they consider to be standard.

Technology is technology, marketing is marketing. Don't get the two confused.

jerry

jerry scharf_3

Taking pot shots at people

Ken,

Your mighty good at taking below the belt shots at people. Acusing Steve Ebels of choosing products beause of a fishing trip is insulting.

Your laxk of knowledge of the financials of product marketing is only exceeded by the bombastic nature with which you present this lack of knowledge. Constantin, as every MBA, was surely taught the methods of cost factoring warrantees into overall product pricing. It's SOP.

Engineers who understand material science and HX design do not set prices or decide warranties. Period. Read my other post and decide whether you think a Hyundai Sonata will outlast a Mercedes diesel because it has a longer warrantee.

jerry

Paul Pollets

Fish Bribe

The reason I use Viessmann is because it helps me catch more salmon. The salmon come with an unconditional lifetime warranty.

Those who have used the boilers extensively (installed more than 10) know the difference. The rest of the arguments don't seem to hold much water.

American boiler manufacturers followed the pack when it came to enhanced boiler design (or controls). The Germans led the pack. Still do, in my opinion.

See you in Ucluelet, Fred....

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Ron Schroeder_3

If the instructions are followed

then the boilers work as advertised and the fish do too. Be there or be square. I can only speak for myself but it is my aim is to always exceed my clients' expectations. Of course now that the world knows that you are a Salmon fisher they won't take you heating counsel seriously anymore. LOL.

bob_44

German Engineering Superiority

Where does Weil McLain go for engineering talent?

Ken_8

Below the belt?

Jerry,

Like Connie, you have an incredible penchant for jumping into something that is pure knee-jerk in all apsects.

If you have nothing better to do than join in a let's "bad mouth" the Yanks and praise the bankrupt argument over Euro technological superiority, knock your self out. But you sell your self short in doing so. And worse, you sell us all short by doing so.

Nonetheless, I continue to be amazed at how blindly defensive the Viessmann "inner circle" becomes when anyone challenges the absurd allegations about why they are worth so much, can't even make a steam boiler, don't know how to trap air by simple baffling and casting nuances we mastered 50 years ago and continue to simply sell, sell, sell. And then sell some more.

I suspect because the Viessmann is handled much like the Lenox furnaces of "members only" networks, nefarious claims of absurd, pricing strategies, claiming totally unfounded superiority based on marketing, not engineering and then publicly debating the obvious.

They make and sell what they do because they must. We make and sell what we do, because we choose to.

Now please leave me alone and go find somebody your own size to pick on.

Thank you.

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Ken_8

Please stop the nonsense,

Despite your contention to the contrary, car and boiler manufacturer's place warranty periods on their products based on their expectations of longevity. They do not want, nor is there adequate margins in cars or boilers, to support you argument. L.L. Bean? sure. Lifetime warranty on an article of clothing they bought from China for 3 bucks and retail for 40 allows extended warranties. Same for Craftsman tools.

Margins on boilers and cars is not even close. Manufacturer's base the duration on engineering's best guess. The W/M warranty has cost them little, so little, they offer lifetime warranties on more and more products.

In America (and lets not forget that is THE arena we are concerned with) warranties are tools used to predict life expenctency first and "marketing ploys" a distant second.

You make 500,000 bad cars and have to eat the warranty, you're out of business. You make 100,000 boilers and have to eat them, your also out of business. W/M has been in business making boilers for well over 100 years. So has Burnham. I suspect Utica, Smith, and Peerless have as well.

All of them offer superior warranties than the Euros.

And you know what else? Most, if not all the companies I mentioned are "public"! Anyone can se how much they make or lose by simply looking it up.

Anybody have a clue as to what's going on inside Viessmann?

You following this? Or will you continue to join the cadre of Euro elitists, making a case for superiority that never was and then debate it ad nasueum?



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Ken_8

Well,

At least now we know why those Viessmanns are so damn expensive. Has nothing to do with engineering and everything to do with expensive fishing trips!

I always wondered why Viessmann boilers had that faint scent of fish.

Now we know(:-o)

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Ken_8

But when the Euros realized great

marketing overcomes over rated engineering every time, guess where they come for the best marketing money can buy?

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Ron Schroeder_3

Ken, I herewith and publicly invite you

to come fishing with us in September despite your vitriol. However, like ever other guest I have ever invited, you too will have to pay your share of the boat. Are you in?

Ken_8

YES! But only if we can

use Connie, Jerry and Paul for bait.

Hammerheads or Great whites?

A Vitodens for the anchor, and a Vitola for downriggers (:-o)

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joel_19

Nice

This kind of stuff is why I haven't spent much of any time here for some time . This started out with an intelligent discussion and question , from maybe a home owner and just derailed from there . The boiler warrantee on many products is a mute point because they are so filled with loop holes that make no sense . For instance in 15 years are you going to pull apart a 3 or 4 section oil boiler to replace the leaking middle section with the " free in warranty section"
Nope your going to what I do and toss the whole thing .
On gas condensors maybe you would switch one out because it's not too difficult on some but that's about it.


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Unknown

I seem to remember

your beloved Weil Mclain giveaways - jackets , shirts , caps , boots , gadgets and gizmos . Hell , one year we sold so many 68s and Golds we had a whole catalog to choose from . Other US boiler manufacturers have golf outings and trips to the Carribbean . The more equipment you sell , the more free crap you got . Just bringing up the point that this isn't a strictly Euro deal Ken . But you already knew that .

Kevin__Flynn

Ken, lets test...

... your warped theory of marketing. Gather up all the trade magazines you can find from the last few years. I apologize, I know that this will take you out of your comfort zone, it will require some reading and searching for facts and not just spewing forth propaganda which is so commonly your M.O.

Look through these trade magazines and count all of the Weil & Burnham ads. I know it will be hard because sometimes it is hard to see if these companies are advertising a FREE BOOT & JACKET GIVEAWAY or boilers, but count them nonetheless.

After that count all of the Viessmann Ads you can find, and let us know the totals you have come up with. I am willing to bet this will disprove your theory of superior marketing on the Viessmann Front.

Now, I will admit, since January of 2005 Viessmann has done a much better job advertising thier company. When Viessmann advertises however, they advertise thier training programs and not so much thier products. But I assure you "Marketing" over the past years was NOT Viessmanns strongest attribute.

Briefly, If warranties in the US were not a commodity, then how come every time one water heater manufacturer extends their warranty by a year every manufacturer within months is sure to follow.



Kevin Flynn

Paul Pollets

Ahoy, Ken...

You know you'd have a blast, and maybe we could talk you into going for "Silvers"...

If not, you'll walk the plank, matey...

We can be very persuasive when on the high seas.....ARRGGGGHHH!!

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Steve Ebels_3

Sorry Ken

You're misinformed regarding warranties. They are definitely the ultimate form of the marketing that you seem to disdain so highly. I'll give you an example.

I sell a line of van and truck interiors made by Edstrom (www.systemedstrom.com) They are another (GASP) European company. As of the first of this year their warranty changed from 2 years to 4 years on their racks, bins, drawers and shelving. What did they change that enabled them to offer twice the warranty they previously did. NOT A COTTON PICKIN THING!

An extended warranty is a calculated expense that is commonly looked at in the same light as advertising or other forms of marketing by many manufacturers.

And speaking of marketing, I'll never forget a W/M trip to Michigan City. Talk about a factory sponsered drinking party...... It seemed to be the main point of the trip. About 1 hour of product info and a tour of the factory. The rest of the two day deal was golf, drinking, casino, drinking, dinner, drinking etc.. Being that I went on the trip to try to learn something it was rather disappointing to me. When the factory "tour guide" is too hung over the morning of the foundry tour to attend it himself..... Let's just say I've never observed conduct like that when I went for training at Viessmann's facility in Waterloo. When you go there for training, you get training.

You are of course still entitled to your opinion and I hope to see you again someday where we can discuss this further over dinner. I'll buy! promise!

Constantin

Hmmm...

I guess Ken is an expert on EU affairs, product design and development, and all things Viessmann. In his world, Europeans cannot afford heating fuel prices that are within 10% of US prices due to excessive taxation... but they can afford high-priced appliances? Despite their meagre dispensible income, Europeans also largely prefer stone-built structures over wooden ones even though the latter are less expensive to build? Makes perfect sense. :-)

Once Ken has developed and helped launch several new products, he might have a leg to stand on as far as warranty-claims calculations, advertising budgets, product pricing, support, etc. are concerned. As best as I can tell, he's only installed product, not actually manufactured any.

Let me also reiterate that the quality of a product is not determined by the country of origin, it's a stateless variable, just like reliability, efficiency, etc. Ken is convinced that it's marketing that allows Viessmann to charge the premiums they do. Others point to product design, quantified fuel savings, support, etc. for their loyalty to the product. Whatever the reason, Viessmann remains the envy of the US heating industry as differentiation strategies like the Opus series from Burnham attests.

Lastly, I'm sure he'll enjoy his EU-built FCX boiler... voting with his wallet and all that.

Mark Hunt

One question


What was the driving force behind your decision to relocate your family here?

Mark H

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Constantin

off-topic...

... and has nothing to do with the present discussion. Cheers.

Mark Hunt

Booze and schmooze

I agree Steve. "Get the businessman drunk and show him some naked girls and he will buy your product forever."

Those trips DO work for some, but for many they do not. If I never see another manufacturing plant or warehouse again it will be all right with me. I want to see what makes the product tick not the bars of America.

But just like tele-marketing, if it didn't work they wouldn't do it. Nothing wrong with taking good customers out for a good time, that's just good PR. But I came to see the end product. I came to see the company. I came to learn about the latest widget. But there are SOOOO many that want to get bombed and get a free hat and coffee mug.

Now how is our industry supposed to make a better impression on customers when we can't make a better impression on ourselves????

While Viessmann and Buderus offer EXCELLENT training, they do not have a corner on the market. The classes I took at Taco were outstanding as were the classes that Amtrol offered. The Burnham people were some of the most boring people in the world after the sun went down! "See you guys at 8:00am!". Peerless did the same. We spent the entire time looking at product and examining the designs of their product. HTP kicks butt as well. Chuck Shaw is in bed at 9:15pm every night, right after Wheel of Fortune, and John Sawyer only knows one place to eat.(I don't remember the name)

The classes I took at Heatway were fantastic! In fact, I met Ellen and HR while I was there. Ellen came to the training facility and HR was at Russ Rose's house for dinner. No bar hopping. Just a nice dinner with a bunch of wetheads.

So I agree with you Steve, calling a "booze and schmooze" training is just that, B S.

Mark H







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Floyd

Wastefull????

You seen the going price of a law suit, because some idiot can't walk and chew gum at the same time on an icey sidewalk???
One slip and the price of snowmelt will look like peanuts....

Floyd

Mark Hunt

I disagree


not off topic and it is quite relevant.

What was the driving force behind your decision to leave your homeland and relocate here? Ken brought up a point about the EU economy and you disagreed with him. Ken mentioned something about EU government subsidies and you disagreed with him. Ken spoke about the devastation after WWII, again, you disagreed with him.

You are obviously a well educated individual which has been displayed in many of your posts here and in the work you have done in a semi-related industry. Kudos.

There are many that post here that say we should follow the EU model, you being one of them. So my question is valid. Why would someone go through such personal turmoil to relocate to a place that was so far behind the eight ball?

What are we doing wrong Constantin?

Mark H





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Mark Hunt

That is an.................


X PARROT!

Mark H



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Mark Hunt

Ah yes


Character attacks. Very fitting. Ken Secor is one of the most well educated and well spoken men you could ever hope to meet.

So let us count the "boots and jackets" ads. Big deal. Those companies are marketing to the contractor. Are you saying the Big V doesn't??? You just said that they have no marketing. So how does anyone know about them????

They market to the professionals and they did it SMART! Buderus came to do battle with the W-M's and the Burnhams, but Viessmann chose to by-pass that entire market and THAT was what seperated them from the rest with regards to marketing. They chose NOT to tap that market. If that is not true, why the new "economically" priced Viessmann???

I have one Vito hanging with a Vitocell 300. Took THREE Vitocells before I got one that wasn't smashed. the last one did have damage, but it was covered by the clean-out cover and the HO didn't mind. The Vitocell STILL has the discoloration from the shifting it took during transport, the foam blocks buffed the paint off. When I first filled the Vito, water squirted out. Why?? The tube coming from the pressure gauge had been pincehd off in assembly. The Viessmann rep was right there to witness this.

Viessmann took care of everything IMMEDIATELY, but I can say no less for several other manufacturers.

Mark H

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jerry scharf_3

nice try, thanks for playing

Ken,

I don't own a Viessmann, and don't think that the world begins and ends with their products. When I designed my system, some of their engineering decisions were incompatible with mine so I went elsewhere for a boiler.

Try working from the facts presented for a change. I notice the discussion of warrantees has vanished. Care to comment about that? You still want that Hyundai because of the better warrantee?

jerry

Constantin

...still off-topic...

... and my private life is still not relevant to the discussion.

Please explain to me instead how the "spot on" remarks by Ken further up make any sense. If the Euros are too poor to afford home heating fuel that is within 10% of the US prices, then how can they afford develop, never mind buy expensive heating appliances to efficiently fire the stuff?

How is it that the Euros by and large prefer cast-concrete residential construction which is more expensive than the wooden structures that predominate in the US? Take a look at the Wall Street Journal archives sometime, they had a whole article on efforts in Germany to get people to accept new wooden home construction... where does the money come from?

For whatever reason, several EU companies are on the forefront of heating and cooling technology and some enabled the likes of NTI, HTP, Peerless, Monitor, etc. to produce or bring efficient solutions to the NA market. Nevermind PEX, TRVs, and decorative low-temp emitters, which were also popularized over there first. If energy prices continue to rise the way they have in recent history, there will be ample reason to emulate the EU in terms of energy efficiency. After all, the average EU per capita energy footprint is &frac12 of an American or Canadian.

That does not mean I recommend emulating the EU in other ways, as I have previously stated multiple times.

Ken_8

Ron,

We call a hat or shirt with a company's name all over it advertising. If I run a round in public with a Slant Fin hat on (which I have been known to do, more than occassionally), that's "advertising."

If I eat a nice meal, get half a bag on and go fishing, it's called "marketing." I believe the yiddish term for it is "schmoozing."

As New Yorkers Ron, we know that means: solicitous behavior intended to reap rewards beyond what is customary or expected under "normal" engagement.

The Slant Fin hat is advertising. The Viessmann fishing trip is marketing.

You gettin' this?



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Ken_8

Please stop referring to the

Euros from the vantage point only you, and a handful of your peers posess. That being, one of extreme priveledge, wealth beyond belief and never having had to work a day in your life.

Your observations are biased, contain no obejctivity from the standpoint of anything much past the academic and priviledged background you are apparently blinded by and make broad sweeping statements about high efficiency devices, homes made of concrete and equally rare technology you would have us believe is common, when in fact it is anything but.

Here's two illustrations you may want ponder before suggesting there's much more going on in Euro-technology besides having the highest unemployment rates in the civilized world, along with taxation policies that force the wealthy to leave, before the government empties their wallets.

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Constantin

Whatever, Ken

Your attempts at insulting me instead of answering the factual questions I and others have asked repeatedly speaks volumes. I hope you enjoy your FCX.

Joe Grosso

Mark, that's inappropriate

Constantin is here because he wants to be. He has his reasons. So does The Lovely Naoko.

And he is entitled to his opinions.

Great pic, Ken!

Paul Pollets

So...

Then the Wirsbo Contractor's Appreciation Days are "advertising" or "Marketing"?

What's the difference?

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Unknown

it's simple, Wirsbo is owned by a european company, so that's marketing done to cover up a substandard level of technical expertise.

If it was a wholly american company, it would simply be smart marketing to display their overwhelming technical superiority.

Don't you see?