FULL THREAD. PLEASE DO NOT ADD ANY MORE OR IT WILL CRASH.

jp_2

oh john...

thats a funny...........

John Ruhnke

Tony your right........

Tony,

I am so focused on GW that I can't think straight. Yes Australia has summer when we have winterand vise versa. I know that. But for some reason it didn't register before.

JR

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Dave_4

Well JR

Why does anything at all exist? We don't regard existence as something, as it were, added to an already existent thing. But we do regard the existence of anything at all as something added to nothing. Such that we are perplexed that absolute nonexistence is not, as it were, reality. 'The world ought not to exist. There really should be nothing.'

Rick

Mad Dog!!!!!!!!

They are probably major contributors to Al and Soros

I bet Bab's helicopters over for high tea too. Hypocrits...symbolism over substance....THAT is just the way they are. Mad Dog

Mad Dog!!!!!!!!

Yes, Teddy The Swimmer said it would block his view

of The Kennedy Compound. Mad Dog

Mad Dog!!!!!!!!

Yes, Teddy The Swimmer said it would block his view

of The Kennedy Compound. Mad Dog

Mad Dog!!!!!!!!

My sentiments exactly Steve

Agree on all points. Mad Dog

Mad Dog!!!!!!!!

Now they are GREAT men?????????

Why? because they are scientists? John, can you name even 10 of them, where they got their degrees AND what think tanks or research organizations they work for now? Group-think is scarier than the threat of global warming....think and do whatever "THEY" tell you...drink the Kool-Aid....John, you are a good-hearted and ultra passionate dude, but you do sound quite brainwashed, brother. Respectfully, Mad Dog

Perry_3

In the beginning....

In the beginning was nothing. Or, that which wasn't.

The nothing became bored and split into two somethings....


and a lot of years later... Look what we got. Ain't bordome great?


Not that it solves energy use, global warming, or the lack of that perfectly fried egg for breakfast...

Perry

Mad Dog!!!!!!!!

hee hee - good catch Hunt

Hey...doesn't two plus two equal 5 or whatever you "feel" it equals? Mad Dog

Steve Ebels_3

Actually some truth to that

Flywheel effect is why even though the least amount of sunlight happens December 20-21, the coldest weather usually follows by about 4-8 weeks. Conversely, the same thing happens with the longest day being in June and the hottest 6 weeks are typically the first of July through mid August. At least in the Northern Hemisphere. But that's weeks not months.

On another note........Antarctica is one of the driest places on earth. You can look that up, it's basically a frozen desert. So when did those mile thick sheets of ice develop. There must have been some substantial precipitation there at one time or another. When did that change? Along with that thought, think about this. Ice itself will evaporate over time even thought it's a solid. So why is that ice still there after 450,000 years given the fact that there is not enough precipitation to keep it built up?
Even a rock will erode over that amount of time from nothing more than wind driven sand particles.

Just one of the many things that puzzle me about our little blue ball hanging out here in space.

Mad Dog!!!!!!!!

John ....if you believe in GOD and have faith

put it in his hands...you can't change the world. You're getting WAY too worked up over this and you are going to turn ALOT of people off. And, NO! it is very unprofessional. Take that from a fellow passionist like me who has been called "the angry young man" for much of his adult life. Are You are going to waste the rest of your days here on Earth wringing your hands about the earth's demise? I could do the same thing about Terrorism or the threat of a Nuke World War where my kids would all be wiped out. Are you going to stop enjoying your life and family? Why go on vacation? Get back on the bed of nails. Look, I think we all need to embrace the new technologies and cut back where we can, but I would REALLY like to see the jack ---- like Gore, Soros, and Babs lead by example. John, seroiusly, you need to moderate because this issues seems to be eating you alive. If the world ends tomorrow, I'm at peace and ready....are you? Mad Dog

John Ruhnke

Ahhhhhhhh?!?!?

Steve

Are we really supposed to try and answer that?

Your making my head spin!!

Hey got a story for you about an alien on my thumb.

I'm looking at my thumb. Is an alian on my thumb looking through a telescope up at the stars wondering how far out they go? I mean really, The alien could live on a planet revolving around a sun. That sun could be an atom. The planet could be a proton. The atom could be part of a skin cell. The skin cell could make part of my thumb. I could be looking at my thumb and he the alien could be looking at me!!!

JR

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Mad Dog!!!!!!!!

Yeah...I was not aware that Co2 was tested 650,ooo years ago

either, but John said "they" said co2 levels are the highest inn 650,000 years....I din't even think the wheel was invented that far back. Mad Dog

Mad Dog!!!!!!!!

do you think they found any beer cans

in those ice cores? I heard cavemen used to get drunk and then take the co2 readings. Mad Dog

John Ruhnke

I think I turned there thnking caps on!!!

Mad Dog,

View some of my posts below

Read the overwhelming evidence article below.

Look at the graph of co2 levels in the last 450,000 years.

Icemeltings 1979-2005

The others read it and I think I got my point across

Then read Big Questions.

I know I sound like a Boy Scout.

Sorry for that I got three cute kids. Megan 6, Emily 3, and Ryan three months. If I don't work to try and reverse global warming then how am I supposed to look them in the eyes at night?

JR



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John Ruhnke

RE:

Mad Dog,

The science is clear

Scientists are no longer debating the basic facts of climate change. In December 2004, Science magazine published an analysis of 928 peer-reviewed science papers on climate change from science journals between 1993 and 2003. The analysis found that not a single scientific article disputed the evidence that the climate is warming because of human activities.


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Steve Ebels_3

Sorry about your head

I thought it was a legitimate question but it is a tad off topic. It merely points out that a good share of what scientists "know" is based on theory and assumptions that things have always been the way they are now in the natural world. Who knows really?

Tom S._3

Kool-Aid for everyone!

A disclaimer: I typically avoid politics and religion. It seems that the believers of anthropogenic global warming have founded a new religion, yet fail to realize it. I'm led to categorize them as Kool-Aid drinkers. The “the science is settled” crowd continues to quote polling that has been thoroughly debunked. In addition, nearly all fail in a basic understanding of statistics, specifically causation. An example of would be this: As of 1992, 77% of all Americans died in hospitals or health care facilities. Hospitals and health care facilities therefore must be causing these deaths. We should ban hospitals and health care facilities, which will greatly reduce these deaths. Have another glass of Kool-Aid, folks.
I've a splendid bit of reasoning/theory for all the Kool-Aid drinkers, along with the black helicopter watchers. Try to stay with me on this one, it's a little complicated:
1)Most (anthropogenic) global warming believers are liberal/progressive/socialist.
2)Most conservative talk shows are on AM radio.
3)Compact fluorescent light bulbs cause significant and irritating AM interference.
4)Global warming believers are attempting to force the use of compact fluorescent bulbs.
5)The liberals/progressives/socialists are attempting to undermine the popularity of conservative talk shows by drowning them with static.
And you thought I wouldn't discover your plot. Ha!

Perry_3

Your post is correct - but misses what scientist are actually

Your post is correct the vast majority of scientist do agree that mankind has had some effect on global warming - but misses what scientist are actually debating at this time... How much affect man has had with the warming, and by what means? I don't think there is any great consensus on that.

I've mentioned that before.

Now I don't know if we are having only a small effect or a very large effect (I really don't know). But I do believe that if we are ever to sort things out you need to be able to precisely understand what is concensus and what is not. Overall, from a very large scale with people from many different countries and cultures having input - science almost always is right.

OK, Mankind is affecting global warming - at least to some - if only a minimal extent. I believe there is consensus on that.

Next question: If so - what can we do and how fast can we do it that will make a change?

Reducing ChloralFloraCarbons (or whatever word CFC's stands for: this is Freon) might do it: But while the industrial countries had to stop almost all production the third world contries were allowed to increase production because they were on a different phase out timetable.

The initial concept of Kayoto was to reduce CO2; but the polititions turned it into a restriction on the most industrialized countries and exempted everyone else (including India and China) - and the result is that worldwide CO2 emmissions are going up - even if all of the restricted industrialized countries had fully complied.

Interestingly, the US without ratifying it has done a better job complying with the Koyoto provisions than has Europe to date according to several reports that I have seen.

China in a few years will exceed the US in CO2 emmissions - and already exceeds the US - and in many cases leads the world in other emmissions (China is responsible for about 1/2 of the mankind emmitted mercury in the atmosphere).

What about other stuff that we are emmitting to our atmosphere. Could the real reason for the increase of CO2 in the world be that acid rain has severely damaged forest and other agriculture so that the natural method of absorbing CO2 has been damaged. In that case - elimination of Acid rain would allow nature to rebalance things.

I find it interesting that the United States has overall the most advanced and restrictive environmental requirements on our power plants and factories in the world, yet our contribution to many atmospheric pollutions in the world - on a world scale is fairly small and decreasing as other countries rush to build power plants and factories without any or very minimal pollution controlls in the name of attracting business and taking money away from the US and Europe.

The cost of labor is not the only reason that it is cheaper to produce things overseas. In fact - in many cases the cost of shipping exceeds the savings on a per piece basis of the lower cost labor. But the cost/savings of no safety and environmental controls can be very large (and who cares if you injure, make severely sick, or kill the workers... there are more willing to do the job lined up outside looking for work).

Now I am not anti-environmentalist. On the contrary; I believe that air and water pollution has caused many many ills and will leave future generations with tremendous problems. However, I believe that many of the other things being emmitted are just as bad or worse than CO2. and it is the combined effect of all of the things being emmitted that is the problem. I think Acid rain plays a far higher effect because it degrades vegitation. I believe that the vast deforestation in many parts of the world are having an huge effect on our enviroment.

I think you would find that many of the scientist that are questioning the effect of CO2 on global warming (and there are a bunch of them - published in peer reviewed scientific journals no less) are discussing and arguing that the other things we are emmitting into the atmosphere and that mankind is doing as much if not more damage than the CO2.

I also believe that the biggest driver is all the people who want to buy the cheapest stuff regardless of where it is made or with what technology; and that critisim is not just related to people in the US. People talk building and buying green. But what the vast majority of those people do is buy to save as much green as possible; which is completely different. Very few people are really into effective recycling. Most support programs that waste more resources collecting susposedely recyclable products than what can be recycled effectively (and I would go back to washable glass bottles for many things).

Let's face it: People in general - worldwide - are programmed that it is OK as long as they "feel good now."

Also, many like to blame something out of their control as the reason for things - and use that as a reason for not doing something (or more) themselves.

Even I fall into that as how much of my resources do I put into things. One Vitodens boiler installed on a T&M+ basis to cut my gas usage about 45% is only one thing I have done. Not cheap by the way. But I struggle with other even more expensive things as I must also look after my personal finances (short and long term).

I personally would like to see about 90% of worldwide coal usage be replaced with nuclear. I think that would have the most benificial effect. Unfortunately, if a crash worldwide construction program were started today - it would take about 50 years to build enough nuclear plants to do that.

As far as oil and natural gas based items... I don't think that will be a real issue in another 30 or 40 years as most of it will have been used up; and have been used up by the rest of the world for every drop the US dosn't use. Right now - other countries expanding oil and gas usage is what is driving the world market.

While solar and wind have a piece to play - I don't think they have enough energy density or cost effectivness to make up a significant portion of our energy portfolio unless we reduce our lifestyle substaintially.

Perry

John Ruhnke

GW wins 928 to 0

Tom,

Global Warming is a serious issue here.You refuse to research and face the real facts.

Imagine if you refused to change oil in your car. What if someone warned you that was bad to do. What if you had black smoke spewing from the back of your car. Still you rufuse to change the oil. By that time it is to late.Your engine is about to blow and there is nothing you can do about it. A day later BOOOM!!!!!!!!!!!

The mechanic thinks to himself "What an @#$%$ that guy was!!"

I presented you with overwhelming evidence and still you refuse to believe.



You have been to a ball game, the Yankees win 15 to 1 Are you going to say it was a close game?

If a polition wins an election by 90% are you going to tell me it was a close race?

Global Warming is real and man caused it!!

Out of 928 lagitimate science papers from 1993 to 2003 that statement was backed up 928 to 0.

That is how sure the scientific comunity is.

Sure some studies paid for by big oil found otherwise. But none of those papers qualified as being worthy by the independent scientific comunity.

Tom, your engine is about to blow if you don't go and change your oil. I warned you. So when it blows don't go crying to me because you refuse to change the oil.

To me being a doubter is fine. As long as you continue to change the oil in your car.

JR

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MikeB34

John

There is not 650,000 years of hard factual data, and there are a lot more climatologists in the world than 300. and not all in the world agree. give 300 people the wrong data and you can get anything said.

i.e at the factory where I work I surveyed 50 people about smoking, and all of 75% were smokers.Last year there was only 50%. Is smoking on the rise at my plant? No I negected to mention that we got downsized and that most of the younger guys who did not smoke no longer work there. Kind of a critical piece of data I forgot..

Extrapolation of geological findings may provide some data as to historical temperatures, but warming and cooling of the globe is a cyclic event, we are finally equipped to measure it as the scientists from the last global warming were still verifying the data to make sure it was safe to come down from the trees.

I agree 10000% about energy conservation, but disagree about "undisputable facts"

If facts were udisputable, the Wright brothers would have never flown.

Everything is in question...You perfonally question the "facts" regarding AFUE, but there numbers are based on facts and accepted by MILLIONS of consumers everyday

jackchips_2

Score:

Tom-1

JR-0

:-))

Jack

John Ruhnke

Straight up!!!

Perry,

Look at the gragh!! It goes straight up!!!

You watch to much tv. Tv has marketing hype behind it. Politics is the same thing, marketing hype created by big industry and big oil has created video's and article's that do not qualify as worthy by the science comunity. Yet reporters still print them as oposing views. This gives people a false sense of what is happening.

The scientific comunity is sure about this stuff. No doubters. Go to a ASHRAE conference. Go to any real science conference on climatalogy. Your see.

In recent history a graph of the rise in CO2 levels looks like a hockey stick!!!!!!! Its level, continues to be level and then goes straight up.

Every scientist agrees 928-0 that there is no man made explanation for that!!!!!!!

JR

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John Ruhnke

Alcoholics need to first admit who they are........

Jack,

If you are an alcoholic the first step to recovery is admiting you have a problem. Once you admit it then you can move on to working on the solution.

It is my job here to get you guys to admit that we have a serious problem.

Look I give up. Let the engine blow.

Your mechanic warned you!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I'm through. I am going to leave and I am done posting. The facts are here above and in the threads. If you want go view them.

If you don't believe you are an alcoholic then there is nothing I can do about it. I'm going to work now.

To my kids, I just want to say that I am sorry that Daddy just doesn't have enough Charisma to get through to these guys.

JR



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DanHolohan

Same beverage, different flavor

Must be hard to see that from the high horse, though. ;-)

DanHolohan

John,

for the children. Give the keyboard a rest for a while and go to work. ;-)

John Ruhnke

Emotions......

Dan,

The problem is that you are letting your emotions cloud your logical thought proccess. I can't even comprehend what you mean by that statement. High Horse?

I am just a mechanic. Its my job to tell people to change the oil. And when they don't warn them of the conciquences.

Do the right thing.

Tell these nice people we have a serious problem here.

Or do you to believe in marketing hype?

You have changed Dan. You aren't who you used to be tenyears ago.

JR

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DanHolohan

I was addressing

Tom.

Deep breath, John.

Tony_23

You're really something

"You let your emotions cloud logical thought"

What a mouthful !!!!!! Did you look in a mirror and say that ? Can you ????

A song is in my head, "Sunspot Baby"

Maine Doug_60

Now that

is funny. I had not heard this one before. Good funny for Friday.


>>>1)Most (anthropogenic) global warming believers are liberal/progressive/socialist. 2)Most conservative talk shows are on AM radio. 3)Compact fluorescent light bulbs cause significant and irritating AM interference. 4)Global warming believers are attempting to force the use of compact fluorescent bulbs. 5)The liberals/progressives/socialists are attempting to undermine the popularity of conservative talk shows by drowning them with static. And you thought I wouldn't discover your plot. Ha!<<<<

jp_2

good steve

those are good comments, always good to question why?

jp_2

johns graph

hey John,

you keep talking about that graph, but you refuse to comment on my numbers thAT reference that graph.

you are refusing to look at the numbers. 0.015% in atmospheric compostiton? hard to beleive thats going to end the world?

PS_3

Funny?

For such a "POTENTIALLY" serious subject, I can't decide if this thread is funny or pathetic. The passion is sincere and can be used for positive gains - if the misguided are not co-opted for another agenda.

jp_2

graph

john look at the graph again, several portions go straight up as you say, which by the way is not really correct.

Jim Olsztynski

An informed perspective on global warming

http://www.townhall.com/columnists/ThomasSowell/2007/03/15/global_warming_swindle

And now, for something completely different ... Can you handle the truth?

DanHolohan

Jim,

do you want to use this thread in the Off the Wall section of PM? Probably have to kill some more trees to do it.

Dave_4

I discredited that video a long time ago.............

Jim O,

The Authur of that video has done many video's before. In every single video the experts have complained they were misrepresented. Every single Video. He has gotten in trouble with the British government many times for this.

Just google his name on the internet and you will see what I mean.

Its not your fault you disbelieve. Remember 928-0 is an awful powerful statement. Not one of the scientists of those papers has changed there minds.

Google some of the scientists quoted in that video you are touting. They have complained about being misrepresented on the internet.

JR


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john_27

.

john_27

.