FULL THREAD. PLEASE DO NOT ADD ANY MORE OR IT WILL CRASH.

Dave_4

Very good article.....

Rob,

Very good article. Wunsch is a man to be respected. If you want to learn something listen to him. Wunsch is what I call very good science. He suggests keeping an open mind. That is important. That to is what makes the wall so great. I have learned so much here over the years. I'll agree that Gore may have been over the top a bit. I don't know if I agree with the oceans raising 20 feet over night. But I do agree with Wunsch who thinks the oceans rising is a serious problem. But Gores wake up call is important too.

JR

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Mark Hunt

I read that

and I wonder if this has something to do with it.

I watched the video, AFTER I read Wunsch's "complaint". The video had been aired in England weeks before it made the net. Plenty of time for the heat to have been turned on by the folks pushing the new found faith. I listened to EVERY word he said and paid close attention to the context. He never said that here was no rise in temperature. All he said was that the oceananic changes take hundreds of years to manifest themselves. A rise in temp today would be the result of something that happened 800 years ago or more. He also stated that increased levels of CO2 in the atmosphere could be attributed to higher ocean temps. Again.....those higher temps would take hundreds of years to materialize.

What I found most interesting in the video were the comments by one of the founders of Green Peace. He speaks not to the science, but to the agenda. And there IS an agenda in all of this. It's not now, nor has it ever been about "the environment". It is all about re-distribution of wealth.

The USA has two options here.

1) Curtail production and progress. This would destroy the US economy and bring us into a "level playing field" with the less successful economies in the world. I.E. Re-distribution of wealth.

2) Pay money for "carbon off-sets". Pollute all you want as long as you pay the piper. Who is the piper? Again, re-distribution of wealth.

Full disclosure here. Other than steam and oil boilers, I have not offered nor have I installed an atmospheric vented appliance in 8 years. Not even a water heater. In the oil and steam category, I only offer the best that the industry has to offer. I size my systems accurately. No BS fudge factor. 5000 square foot steel building heated with a Munchkin T-80. The other "experts" all said 250k. HAHA.

It has been posted in this thread by a certain someone that ALL 300 climatologists in the freakin' world agree that man is the cause of globular warming. Well.........there are more than 300 climatologists and climatologists are NOT the only "experts" paying attention to these things. But man-made climate change has become a religion. You are either a "believer" or a "denier". Put me solidly in the denier category. Not that I am denying that the world tends to warm and cool, no sane person could question that, I do not believe that people have any measurable impact at all. NONE!

I do not post this with ANY expectation that it will change minds. After all, I'm just a stoopit heetr guy. No PHD or PE. Yet somehow I am able to grasp laws of physics. Somehow I understand thermodynamics. We all do it every day. If 300 "experts" told you that the "Glow-core" was the best boiler in the world, would you believe them?

YOU had NOTHING to do with this planet's existence and YOU cannot change what will happen next. YOU had NOTHING to do with the first ice age NOR did YOU reverse that ice age. So all of a sudden, we command the planet? Believe me, we are not that great. You over estimate humankind.

So 300 "experts" are to rule a world of billions. They decide who gets a better life and who does not.

Yah!! That sounds fair! OH!! But NEVER question the motivation of the "blessed 300"!!! NO! NEVER! They only have the EARTH in mind. They have all taken a vow of poverty right?

"We are the priests, of the Temple of Syrinx. Our great computers...fill the hallowed halls."

Re-education camps for everyone.

"Resistance is futile"

Come and get me.

Mark H



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Dave_4

Very good.........

Perry,

Very good account of the Nucular side of things. I can tell that in your head you have some good strategies going.

Remenber by todays standards 50 nucular plants a year seems like a dificult task. My phone has a computer chip in it that is faster then a computer in a major corporation that filled a room 30 years ago.

Never under estimate the power of the human spirit and its ability to advance technology.

We will improve things and make 50 plants a year look like peanuts.

Its not the end of the world.

It is just time to go to work!!!!!

No big deal!!!

We broke it!!!

We can fix it!!!

JR

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Steve Ebels_3

If you have an hour

There's a documentary done by the BBC that shows a viewpoint of global warming quite different than what we hear in the media everyday. Unfortunately I don't know how to copy the address and post it here but you can probably find it if you Google "the great global warming swindle".

I've said it before and I'll say it again........Global warming is not the issue. Conservation and finding alternatives to present forms of energy should be of paramount importance.

Ummmmmmm...... pardon me while I put on my prophet's robe........I believe that we have less than 10 years before the energy producing countries decide to put the screws to the USA. We are NOT masters of our own destiny anymore.

CC.Rob_3

Mark

I will only take issue with your examination of Wunsch. For better or worse, I do know a lot about the subject matter, have read most of his papers, and heard him give seminars on this and other topicss. It was quite obvious to me that he was heavily edited and placed very carefully.

To my mind, the most unfortunate thing about all this climate debate (in society at large, not just here on The Wall...) is that is has devolved to a very base level from which it will take science and society quite a while to recover.

"They left the planet long ago
The elder race still learn and grow
Their power grows with purpose strong
To claim the home where they belong
Home to tear the Temples down...
Home to change!"

I think it was the tour after that came out was my first show....

ttekushan_3

The opposite of Mensa...

> I can't take it any more. My sides hurt. OK OK I

> admit it I'm an IDIOT too! WOW WE should form a

> club. Like the opposite of Mensa. See I cant even

> spell. I'm qualified. Oh well. John I also do my

> best to promote efficient heating and I hope this

> helps the planet. I bet we will see where this

> histeria is leading soon. I'm sure there is some

> redistribution of wealth involved. But then that

> is just one idiots ramblings. i'll be dead soon

> and then pollute the ground and water with years

> of accumulated chemicals I've injested through

> the years.

Mark Hunt

Yah well


I Googled the daylights out of Wunsch. I found nothing to explain his protest. His statements on the video were in no way contrasting to what he already has on record. Of course if you withdraw his funding..........

I am done for the evening.

Goodnight

Mark H

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ttekushan_3

The opposite of Mensa...

is "DENSA" which was a real (but tongue-in-cheek) organization. Don't know what ever happened to it. But it sure would suit me fine!

Just thought a little levity right about now couldn't be a bad thing. OK, I'll go away now and continue ducking for cover

-Terry

Mark Hunt

Steve


This video has been linked at least twice. The "faithful" do not want to view it.

They are convinced that some "Big Oil" company paid for it.

"Smile and wave boys.......just smile and wave"

Mark H

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Weezbo

come up to Alaska! *~/:) it was 42 below 0°F today

someplace in Russia went 93 below this year.....hurray! for Global warming is all i can tell you

Dave_4

I saw it...........

Mark,

I saw the video. You don't want to face the facts. The Authur of the video has a very long list of trouble that he has gotten into for misrepresenting the views and facts from others. He uses parts of what they say and twists things around. The governments have taken action against him.

You can't listen to garbage.

JR

jp_2

question for you john

you are talking a lot about CO2 levels and increases.

1.) what were the CO2 levels 100 yrs ago?

2.) CO2 levels in 1970?

3.) CO2 levels now.

you can answer in years close or even decades close to above dates, doesn't have to be axact.

added: can you show the graph you speak of where CO2 levels are going 'almost straight up' as you say?

jp_2

what I found john,

I took a quick look.

CO2 levels have gone from around 190 to 330 PPM, 1900 to 1972.

now CO2 is a greenhouse gas, water vapor is also a greenhouse gas. seems water vapor constitutes about 2-3% of the atmosphere, or 20,000 to 30,000 PPM.

a change of 40PPM within greenhouse gases of 20,000- 30,000 PPM doesn't add up to me . this 40PPM change causing horrendous weather and melting of the artic. Hmmmm?

see where I'm going with this?

this was a quick goggle search, these figures could be wrong, if so lets see better numbers.

Dave_4

Graph of co2 levels last 450,000 years

J-P,

Take a look at this graph. Over the last 450,000 years you will see that from ice age to ice age the levels varied consistantly from 190 ppm to just under 300 ppm. Never much over 300 ppm in the entire time. Then look at modern times. All of a sudden the levels have gone straight up!!

In a very short time, a hundred years it has gone from about 280 to 380 ppm. On a graph over 450,000 years it is going straight up!! Dramatically!!

When there was an ice age levels were low, under 200ppm. At the warmest times, 300 ppm. Now ? 380 ppm

Look!!

Its very alarming to me!!

JR

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Dave_4

Who

Was measuring 450,000 yeas ago? The Geico Cavemen?

This post is wild...

jackchips_2

You're

right, Rick.

450,00 years ago? I don't have boots high enough.

:-))

Jack

CC.Rob_2

It's called a proxy

Some of them are quite faithful recorders of earth's history.

Dave_4

Ice Core Samples.......

Rick,

What the scientists do is they drill these very long holes in the ice. The deeper they go the older the ice is. They then analyse the contents. They can tell the atmosphere contents by doing some math based on the ice samples. They can also determine the age of the ice. They then put it on a graph and there you go.

JR

jp_2

Alarming?

even still, CO2 at 380 ppm only accounts for .038% of the atmosphere?

water vapor is 2-3% of atmosphere. minimum 50 times more water vapor than CO2, just doesn't seem like CO2 can effect weather with these numbers.

William Faust

okay, now you have to...

figure out how CO2 went up in each of those CO2 cycle before the advent of human industrial CO2. If you can figure that out, I'll agree to tell my boss, the President, to order the Pentagon to kill off the global population of termites.

Karl

P.S. Don't send stuff to William A. Faust. He died a year ago. That was written in the post where you picked up his name.

Dave_4

Yes it did!! Acording to Scientists

J-P,

According to the scientists the levels of co2 were low when there was an ice age. High during warm times. The earth's atmospheric temps and Co2 levels were in direct corrolation. If co2 goes up then temps go up. If co2 goes down then temps go down.

Ice is melting at the solar caps at a huge rate. Ice that has been there for 100's of thousands of years. This to should be very alarming.

JR

Dave_4

Orbits around the sun............

Karl,

The earths orbits around the sun have effected the ice ages presents in the past.

In the last 100 years it seems to be man made.

JR

William Faust

Okay, now we're going to test your GW religion

This simple question will test your faith in the Global Warming (GW) Religion. Ready? Okay, if it were true that rises in CO2 have always followed warming periods rather than vice versa, would the recent spike in CO2 concern you?

Karl

jp_2

OR

the CO2 increases when the earth is warmer and decreases when the earth cools.

I think they got it backwards........... looking at one variable in a multi variable systems leads to erroneous outcomes.....

Dave_4

Ice meltings from 1979-2005

Karl,

Ckeck out this fun little interactive slider.

http://www.everybodysweather.com/Static_Media/Polar_Ice_Cap_Melter/index.htm

The polar ice cap has melted a lot from 1979-2005.

This is alarming too!!

JR

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jp_2

oops

ALH_4

Nuclear

I think the reason people accept the human costs of coal is that they are more apparent. The dangers of nuclear power are not nearly so tangible, and Chernobyl cemented the effects of an accident as absolutely horrifying in most people's minds. I'm not saying it is right. I'm just stating the fact.

Eventually those alive during that time will die or forget and nuclear power will get another chance. Until then (and until we have a leader intelligent enough to pronounce the word "nuclear") I do not see it happening.

It amazes me how suddenly we have all decided that global warming is occurring at an alarming rate. Public opinion generally has very little basis in fact. It can be shown that the planet is warming. What cannot be shown is exactly why or whether it will continue or at what rate at which it might continue.

jp_2

what?

what?

jp_2

Horse poop!!!!!

john, you are suggesting,or at least the scientist, that a change in CO2 of 150 ppm causes an Ice Age?

thats a .015% change in atmosphere conditions? I say hog wash! putting the horse before the cart. what caused all those Ice Ages and CO2 spikes on that graph?

John Ruhnke

Like I said...........

J-P,

The scientists said that the earths orbit around the sun has caused the extreme ice age and temperature spikes over the last 400,000 years as evident in the graph above.

The last 100 years apears to be man made.

JR

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jp_2

how does

that affect climate? we are afrther from the sun during the summer and closer to the sun in the winter?

are they suggesting the earth gets way out of orbit every 400,000 years?

does that really make sense to you?

John Ruhnke

Overwhelming Evidence of global warming man made

The following is from a passage I found on the internet.

JR

The science is clear

Scientists are no longer debating the basic facts of climate change. In December 2004, Science magazine published an analysis of 928 peer-reviewed science papers on climate change from science journals between 1993 and 2003. The analysis found that not a single scientific article disputed the evidence that the climate is warming because of human activities.

Unfortunately, a similar analysis of media reports had very different findings: about half still framed the issue as a science debate.

The Science study showed the consensus among respected individual scientists. Here’s what highly respected science organizations say:

In a joint statement with 10 other National Academies of Science, the U.S. National Academy of Sciences said:
"The scientific understanding of climate change is now sufficiently clear to justify nations taking prompt action. It is vital that all nations identify cost-effective steps that they can take now, to contribute to substantial and long-term reduction in net global greenhouse gas emissions."—Joint Statement of Science Academies: Global Response to Climate Change, 2005

The American Geophysical Union, a respected organization comprising over 41,000 Earth and space scientists, wrote in its position on climate change that "natural influences cannot explain the rapid increase in global near-surface temperatures observed during the second half of the 20th century."

What You Can Do
Small changes to your daily routine can add up to big differences in helping to stop global warming.

Three easy ways to fight global warming »

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John Ruhnke

Every hundred thousand years

JP,

I think the orbit changes a little. Gets larger and smaller every 100,000 years. The earth orbits around the sun once a year. The orbit is oblong or offset so as to cause the earth to be closer every summer and further every winter.

JR

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William Faust

That research is now

four to fourteen years old.

Karl

jp_2

backwards john

we are CLOSER in winter, farther away in summer.

Dave_4

Questions for JR

John,

What is the best mechanism to support adaptation? Is this best done through government-to-government transfer, or can cleverer ways be invented that bring support to the level at which it is really needed and can make a difference?

In light of the uneven impacts of climate change around the world, what is a reasonable target for parts per million (ppm) of CO2 in the atmosphere which would better protect the interests of poorer people and communities?
can a mechanism be created which links the level of adaptation payments to emission levels?

In such a case, the longer and slower the cuts in emissions by rich countries, the greater the redress that would be sought.

Most of all, how best can the language and arguments of justice and human rights be used to make a forceful case for unfair use of global assets?

See, so easy a cave man can do it...

John Ruhnke

Really?

JP,

If that is true then it must be a delayed effect. Kind of like your radiant floors. You pump the heat in and many months later you see the effects.

JR

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John Ruhnke

Big Questions.......

Rick,

This is my take on things.

We all have to do our part. Everyone adds to the technological improvements needed.

Did one person improve the computer? No many did.

I don't believe in cutting back on industrial development. That will harm the economy, reduce jobs, cause recessions.

I think we have to change the way we do things. Nulear, solar, wind, energy efficiency, geothermal, fuel cells.

We need inventors, contractors, engineers and scientists to develop all of this new technology.

Remember in 30 years of development my phone has a faster and stronger computer then a computer at a major manufacturer that cost millions of dollars and took up an entire room!!

Never underestimate the human spirit's ability to advance technology in an area when they are inspired!!

Put up huge incentives for technology to be developed. That should be funded by the DOE (Dept of Energy).

I have my DOE project all set up. All I need to do is convince the DOE to do it. Click to view my project.

http://www.comfortableheat.com/OverallEfficiency080706.pdf

I pay 10% more in my electricity bill. The company I buy from buys electricity from wind power. Yes it isn't as efficient but I am willing to make the sacrifice and pay more anyway.

I am helping a local inventor to develop a reset boiler control that willsave the country a lot in fuel bills. I am his license agent.

I design and sell high efficiency heating systems. More importantly I have spent 5 years doing heavy research on energy efficiency.

I have installed two suplimentalgeothermal radiant cooling projects.

I am signed up to take some class's on Solar hydronic heating and mod/con boilers.

I am doing my part. Now it is your turn to do your part.

If everyone works at it miricles will happen!!!

Just think about that tiny computer in your phone!!

JR



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Tony_23

Hold on Galileo

If we're closer to the Sun in orbit in the Summer, how come the southern hemisphere has Winter at the same time ? Last I knew, the earth's axis tipped and caused the changes marked by the equinoxes and solstices.

Enlighten me if I'm wrong.

John Ruhnke

RE:

Tony,

I started the answer to the question "I think" for me that means I am guessing. I don't have time to research everything. If you want to learn how the orbits work I think we need another expert to answer that one because I am not quite sure.

The point is experts made the graph and man made global warming is backed up by 928 science papers from 93-03.

I spend my time learning about hydronic heating system design. Energy Efficiency, Mod/cons, solar, and geothermal are all applications of hydronics that I am learning about. That is my contribution to solving global warming.

JR

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