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FULL THREAD. PLEASE DO NOT ADD ANY MORE OR IT WILL CRASH.
Comments
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Question
If you do a keyword search on "climate change", do the papers that say there isn't one come up too ? Maybe that's why it's 928-0.
As far as independent researchers go, they all need to eat. That means SOMEBODY is paying for the research. If the grantor says find me proof, that's what WILL happen.
Personnally, I think some here are breathing too much CO2 and are O2 deprived
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Here's one John
and 1700 scientists trumps your 928.
That means I win.
Of course I am sure you will scream that this is all part of a vast-right-wing conspiracy and you will never "lose the faith".
Have a look here.
BTW, that took me 10 seconds to find. So just exactly how much reasearch have you done? CRITICAL research John. Not just looking up papers that say what you want them to say.
Edit: I was wrong John. That would be 17,000 scientists.
I call that a sweep......... 17,000 to 928.
Mark H
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!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I'm going to use more exclamation points in my posts!!!!!!!!!
I really like them!!!!!!!!!! Others seem to use them to their advantage!!!!!!!!! I need to think of something before I decide to post about Kool-Aid again!!!!!!!!!! BTW: My Utica UB 90-100 and Amtrol WHS80 BoilerMate Premier is the best hydronic system ever created!!!!!!!!! Waaaay better than my old Weil-McLain Series D 5-W-25 ever was!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Sorry. I'm going to bed now. Tom 0 -
Are we reading the same papers?
Ken,
I went to the CPC web site and started reading papers. They sponsor the Climate Diagnostic Workshop. The papers I read concluded that the earth was warming. One of the papers explained how the sea levels are rising do to the glacial ice melting.
Not quite sure what your point is.
My point is if there is a posibility of man made global warming we have to do something about it.
Gee if you add the two papers I just read through,
930-0
Again you now have 93,000 papers to dig up.
Your little excapade cost you 200 papers. You now need to find two hundred opposing papers.
JR
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God!!!!!!!
How long can this post go-on for???? I can`t seem to recall the opening question!
Dave0 -
Wrong Mark............
Mark,
Here is some info for you on that petition.
Jr
Oregon Institute of Science and Medicine
From SourceWatch
The Oregon Institute of Science and Medicine (OISM) describes itself as "a small research institute" that studies "biochemistry, diagnostic medicine, nutrition, preventive medicine and the molecular biology of aging." It is headed by Arthur B. Robinson, an eccentric scientist who has a long history of controversial entanglements with figures on the fringe of accepted research. OISM also markets a home-schooling kit for "parents concerned about socialism in the public schools" and publishes books on how to survive nuclear war.
The OISM is located on a farm about 7 miles from the town of Cave Junction, Oregon (population 1,126). Located slightly east of Siskiyou National Forest, Cave Junction is one of several small towns nestled in the Illinois Valley, whose total population is 15,000. Best known as a gateway to the Oregon Caves National Monument, it is described by its chamber of commerce as "the commercial, service, and cultural center for a rural community of small farms, woodlots, crafts people, and families just living apart from the crowds. ... It's a place where going into the market can take time because people talk in the aisles and at the checkstands. Life is slower, so you have to be patient. You'll be part of that slowness because it is enjoyable to be neighborly." The main visitors are tourists who come to hike, backpack and fish in the area's many rivers and streams. Cave Junction is the sort of out-of-the-way location you might seek out if you were hoping to survive a nuclear war, but it is not known as a center for scientific and medical research. The OISM would be equally obscure itself, except for the role it played in 1998 in circulating a deceptive "scientists' petition" on global warming in collaboration with Frederick Seitz, a retired former president of the National Academy of Sciences.
To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"0 -
> How long can this post go-on for???? I can`t seem
> to recall the opening question!_BR__BR_Dave
I wonder if this is the longest thread ever. I don't recall one this large before0 -
JOHNNY BOY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Your time would be better spent edifying your little miracles of life, the seed corn of the coming millenium, in the ways of conservation and good ecology...NOT, sabotaging your good rep and YOUR business out here on the limb.....proselytsing with manical tirades and FITS!!! of delusional ecXtasy. I'll say it again, you are a GOOD man - very intelligent and shall we say VERYYYYYYYYYY! Passionate. Put that passion in to your FAmily NOW - real-time and your business to make this world a better place. Whether you realize it or not...this screwed up world will be here in 100 years..we aren;t all gonna breathe our last breathe next week. I see that you have been banging your head against this wall (no pun intended - for once) for weeks now. As Dr. Laura once said: "do you REALLY wanna DIE on this hill?" You need to focus on your young family, your business,and THIS!!!! last. Compassionately speaking. Mad Dog0 -
Just start reading from the top...
The first half or so makes some good reading; or at least I think so. I'm at a loss to think of what to say about the bottom part. But, it at least proves something. I'll even conceed that John has proven a point.
I'd also like to thank Bill for tossing me a couple real questions.
Perry0 -
There aren't any.........
Tony,
From 1993 on, ALL THE PAPERS STATE........
Global warming is happening and it is man made.
928-0
No word twisting, no deception, no lies, nothing is disputed by any creditable scientists.
928-0
Just pick up any creditable science journal and read. ANY JOURNAL.
They all say the same things.
928-0
JR
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HEY!!!!!!!! JOHN
I deal with people EVERY day that think I am an ARROGANT, DIFFICULT, KNOW_IT_ALL snake salesman becuase I GO OUT OF MY WAY to warn of the dangers of CO, the GLUTTONY of oversized equipment, the perils of BAD workmanship. YES!!! IT does get to you, but you MUST LEARN to turn it off so that you can give the best to your family and YOUR business. You need to learn to warn, educate, cajole,tweak....but the NAILED TO THE CROSS, the WORLD IS ENDING TOMORROW approach is not only NOT persuading anyone, it is turning them off IN DROVES (Ask me how I know about this tactic). Johnny Boy, we may or may not have met at Wetstcok #1, but I know you are a solid guy. PLease, listen.....Get away from the Wall for awhile, don't even read the papers. Get back to basics: FAMILY, GOD, COUNTRY, BUSINESS. Ma' Sweeney told me for years....." Matt, you won't convince many people or win people over to your point of view letting it ALL Hang out and letting 'er rip. Anger, despair, paranoia, pity ALL have their place in debate, argument, and discussion, but you can't put them foward 24/7. Here if you wanna talk. Mad Dog0 -
meanwhile...
Over on the climate change discussion board, the climate scientists are having a heated debate about primary/secondary piping and mod-cons. Fascinating stuff.0 -
HEY!!!!!!!! JOHN
IMprovise, adapt, overcome. Who is the man they were 10 years ago? Did you ever think of this? Would you even be spouting off here at The Wall if it weren't for Dan? It's funny, you know, EVERYONE of Dan's critics I have known over the years...never did get around to writing 14 books, articles EVERY MONTH, helping the unfortunate. Markism#1
(as Mark Hunt told me as we shared a Tanq' and Tonic..)When you are the boss, prez, whatever, you will ALWAYS be.........the PIA, P_____ SOB. John. Now you are REALLY out of line. THrow your computer in the river and get back to baSICS....fAMILY, GOD, cOUNTRY, work. Mad Dog0 -
Yeah.....like a Health care proxy...right?
Subject to the whims of the the living....Mad Dog0 -
For those still following this thread
Here's another link to follow that points out some interesting facts regarding the relationship of CO2 and water vapor.
http://www.geocraft.com/WVFossils/greenhouse_data.html
I have to wonder though if a warmer atmosphere wouldn't contribute to greater evaporation and consequently greater amounts of water vapor.0 -
Yes John, and THE JUICE went free and........................
WHat do "WE" do about it? Revolution? Armeggedon? I love it, bring it on baby, judgement day.......WILL YOU be ready? WHAT ARE YOUR REALLY TRYING TO AFFECT, JOHN? Mad Dog0 -
Yes John, and THE JUICE went free and........................
WHat do "WE" do about it? Revolution? Armeggedon? I love it, bring it on baby, judgement day.......WILL YOU be ready? WHAT ARE YOUR REALLY TRYING TO AFFECT, JOHN? Mad Dog0 -
Yes John, and THE JUICE went free and........................
WHat do "WE" do about it? Revolution? Armeggedon? I love it, bring it on baby, judgement day.......WILL YOU be ready? WHAT ARE YOUR REALLY TRYING TO AFFECT, JOHN? Mad Dog0 -
As predicted
I do not know why I even bothered.
John,
I do not say this with any ill intent, but you have been consumed by a cult mentality. Every time you are offered a different view, you immediately look to shoot the messenger with out considering the message. You did not look at ONE sentence of the PEER REVIEWED paper. You immediately looked for a moonbat hit piece on the folks that presented the paper. NOT PRODUCED THE PAPER JOHN, presented it.
You posted last night that you are so consumed with GW that you "can not think straight". I agree with that statement.
You are not interested in science anymore John and you have NOT been interested in CRITICAL thinking since you heard David Suzuki talk about GW, what, two years ago? You posted about GW then, although you were not yet completed in your indoctrination. Now you FEEL you have all of the answers. Well you do not. You didn't even know that the earth is closer to the sun in the winter than it is in the summer. I learned that in the 4th grade John.
I have many more links to "peer reviewed papers" that disagree with the "consensus", but what is the point? I already predicted that you will not listen. You have done NO real research John. You want to be called an "engineer"?? An engineer of what?? Engineers deal with the LAWS of physics John, not the "I think" or "I feel" of physics.
I do not hate you nor do I hold any personal animosity toward you. Hell, I'll buy you a beer the next time I see ya'!
Have YOU REALLY looked for hard, conclusive, scientific data on any of this? Other than what David Suzuki said?
You have rebuffed nothing John. You have not discredited anything. All you have proven in your MULTIPLE posts is that you have come to a decisive conclusion. That is all John. Your critical thinking has left the auditorium. I will next begin to show you that most of the "studies" that you hold as gospel are actually not only funded by, but authored by people that have extreme political ideologies. Funny how you attack the "deniers" yet all of YOUR sources are as pure as the driven snow. That alone should shock you.
Fact is John that you are not here to debate anything. You already said that your JOB here at the wall was to convince people about man-made GW. This morning you offered an apology to your children because you weren't "charismatic enough" to convince people. It has nothing to do with charisma John. Nor should it be. Hitler was a pretty charismatic guy in the early days.
Quite a few of the people that you have called "friends" have tried to talk rationally to you. In every instance you have responded with vitriol and out-right insults. Perhaps you need to re-think your thinking.
Mark H
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Rule # 1 In Court, the classroom, the boiler room or the street
do NOT!!!!!!!!!! quote that things that you cannot explain in plain English to Dummies like me. When you bring "sources" in to the mix, YOU'D BETTER be able to extrapolate on it in understandible terms. Mad Dog0 -
JOagendhn.......................................................
Mao, Pol Pot, Castro and Goebbels & Saddam had ALL kinds of paperwork and documentation to "support" their agendas too!Good historical works can only be seriuosly written - 50 YEARS after the subject at hand...i.e., it takes THAT long to weed out the the facts and trutyh. Mad Dog
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United Nations Needs our Help
Mark,
I present evidence after evidence to you. I have no agenda. I examined the facts. Scientific papers from creditable sources.
Mark NEVER EVER HAVE YOU EVEN SHOWN ME ONE!!!!!!!
I am talking about a paper not discredited by a major scientific source.
The United Nations is taking this very seriously. New studies have come in and things are worse now. This is from a March 1 posting at the U.N. They have raised the warning and asked for more help. The Kyoto Protocol isn't strong enough. They need to go to tougher measures.
Does the U.N. drink cool aid too??????????
They need our help Mark.
Stop reading marketing hype because it will distort your view.
JR
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United Nations Needs our Help
Mark,
I present evidence after evidence to you. I have no agenda. I examined the facts. Scientific papers from creditable sources.
Mark NEVER EVER HAVE YOU EVEN SHOWN ME ONE!!!!!!!
I am talking about a paper not discredited by a major scientific source.
The United Nations is taking this very seriously. New studies have come in and things are worse now. This is from a March 1 posting at the U.N. They have raised the warning and asked for more help. The Kyoto Protocol isn't strong enough. They need to go to tougher measures.
Does the U.N. drink cool aid too??????????
They need our help Mark.
Stop reading marketing hype because it will distort your view.
JR
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Unscientific and again proven false....with an agenda
Steve,
Here is the link
http://info-pollution.com/chill.htm
Again the truth is twisted. facts are wrong. the information has been proved wrong.
Go take a look at the United Nations.
The U.N. is made up of our world leaders.
The U.N. on March 1st issued a stronger warning about Global Warming. New Studies came in and things look worse. The Kyoto Protocol isn't going to be strong enough now.
They need our help.
JR
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I am reminded of the time that we went camping, following one of our hobbies of tracking down old gold mines. We homeschooled and had spent months looking at maps, reading old diaries, studying various methods of mining, and even talking to a few old timers preparing for this camping trip with the kids.
Well, there we were setting up camp next to Bertha Creek, right smack in the middle of the ground the Russians had mined 100 years ago. My youngest, then six, had gone down to the creek to do what all six year old boys on camping trips do...fill his boots with water, pee in the creek, and completely cover himself in mud. He came charging back out of the brush wild eyed and excited....he had found an artifact! And by the time he got to the fire he knew exactly what it was used for in gold mining, who had used it in gold mining, how it had been used in gold mining, and how long ago. He even brought back samples of rock from the creek and showed me how the artifact worked. And, I'll have to admit, he'd done his homework, the artifact did work for scratching the mud and gold from the cracks in the rocks. The artifact did fit snugly on his little hand. It was certainly like nothing he had ever seen before.
But, I saw the same artifact and how it worked and came to an entirely different conclusion as to its age, who had used it, and for what.
The artifact was a pull top from a beer can and had to have been from the 70's. It may well have been used in the mining industry...but, not for scratching gold out of the mud!
Now, we both couldn't be right. But, the evidence presented at the time surely supported Jason's scientific conclusion...and it was in every sense scientific. His conclusion was also wrong.
The problem was that he went into the study with a bias...he was expecting to find artifacts left over from the Russian prisoners who mined the area, and all of his senses and efforts were focused on that goal...to the exclusion of any evidence to the contrary. We tend to always find what we go looking for.
For the record, I did what any good Daddy should do. I got into his little head and you know what...I could see those Russians too! I let him have his dream and his day in the spotlight. But, he was six, and no harm could come of it.
I did keep the pull tab...it is now enshrined in a jewel box behind glass...like any good artifact should be. It sits on my desk and it serves to remind me that my view of the subject of the day is not the only view, and may just be tainted by my pre-existing conclusions. I use it as a very pointed object lesson in the class that I teach...to truly learn, we must leave pre-conception, bias, consensus, popular thinking, learned opinions, and even ideology at the door.0 -
Try This Site...
... http://www.john-daly.com/index.htm Or this one:
http://www.friendsofscience.org/index.php?ide=3
Google for more. There are lots.
You need to understand how people "play" with numbers, John. I've witnessed it first hand with big corporations, and exersizes in "spreadsheet madness".
I guess the bottom line is, how much is everyone willing to pay, to correct this (supposed) problem? I saw one survey on the news where the majority of people agreed that global warming is real, and man-made. They were then asked if they'd be willing to pay another $100 a year in taxes to deal with the situation. A solid majority of those who said they believed in man-made global warming indicated that they would NOT be willing to pay even that amount in increased taxes. It's like the Dennis Miller joke about the Lincoln Navigator with an "Earth First" bumper sticker. Wait until a lot of these folks find out that the war on man-made global warming will cost them their jobs. And not just their current jobs - their future jobs. Somebody should explain just exactly what the costs will be, because I don't think most people realize what they're agreeing to support is gonna cost 'em.0 -
I have proof Global Warning exists!
This should end all the arguments. We can all live in peace and tranquility. But I have one question. If it's soooo freaking warm out. Please explain the blizzard we had yesterday. Seems like Global Cooling to me...0 -
United Nations Needs our Help?
No.
They need our money. That is what it is all about.
Mark H
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feedback vs forcing
Water vapor is a feedback rather than a forcing and responds to, among other things, changes in radiative forcing by CO2. Residence time of water vapor in the atmosphere is about 10 days. Load the atmosphere with water vapor and it condenses, rains out, and you're soon back to the global average. In contrast, the residence time of CO2 is more like century+.
There is both evidence for and predictions of increased WV due to climate warming.0 -
Funny pic , but
you seem to forget the record warm weather many of us had up to February . And the record warm weather the year before that . And the year before that .
I thought there was no doubt that global temps were on the rise ? The question was what is the cause ? I'd like to know if the naysayers really believe people had zero impact on the global temperature rise ?0 -
I love you John,
I love the way the debate, which is NOT about global warming (which no one debated BTW) but IS about all the "scientific" evidence that MAN is THE cause of it!
Man may cause it, Then again, he may not. The known to be accurate historical data we have available, is so small, that responsible scientitist are saying the statistical evidence is so small as to be STATISTICALLY INSIGNIFICANT FOR RESPONSIBLE SCIENCE TO MAKE ANY ASSUMPTIONS WITHOUT FURTHER STUDY AND BETTER SAMPLING METHODS!
You rather conveniently failed to respond to the post that suggests "PEER REVIEW" is NOT a bona fide method of qualifying the merits of some "evidence" your position is COMPLETELY depedent upon.
Since "peer review" seems to be the basis upon which you hang your hat - and that "standard" is demonstratably flawed; and, since you cannot cooberate any other "study" other than the one you are completely dependent on to make your case.
The case you think you've made - since it cannot stand the light of contradictory evidence that is 10 times as compelling and ten times as prevalent - makes your 980:0 "basis" of "evidence..."
IRRELEVANT!
At least you now appear to realize how shallow "peer review standards" are, and can readily see other data whether or not peer reviewed, MAY be equally valid.
After reading ~90% of all the posts in this thread, I never found the source/link of the paper your position is so exclsively predicated upon. Could you send it to me so I may read an original?
Don't forget, a Happy St. Patrick's Day to you lad!0 -
I'll type even slower
All the papers YOU'VE read state what you say. There are 1000's stating the opposite that you REFUSE to read. Others here have pointed you in the direction of these papers and you try to discredit the authors, not the work (as if you are qualified). Furthermore, the UN is hardly a credible source for unbiased information. Dig deeper into the UN and see just how corrupt it is in so many ways. Does "new world order" ring any bells ?
Of course, since they say what you want to hear, I am wrong. What's the score now ? 300-0, 928-0, 930-0 ? If you've spent the time required to actually research ALL these papers you hold up as "Gospel", your kids you worry about would already have starved to death.
This thread has all the elements of a Shakespearean play, just the tragedy is apparent to most but not all.
Now, since it's 8 deg F here this morning, I'm going to work and focus on changing something I can have an impact on.0 -
Regarding the United Nations
No JR, the UN isn't filled with Kool-Aid drinkers. It's filled with people mixing the Kool-Aid for others. A couple of easily verifiable facts regarding the chimp parade that is the UN:
1) The UN charter was co-written by Alger Hiss, a Soviet spy and (obviously) a high ranking Communist Party member.
2) Alger Hiss' status as a covert Soviet operative was confirmed by the VENONA project. Thousands of pages have been deciphered and declassified for your enjoyment.
3)For something current, how about Libya as a member of the Human Rights Commitee?
4) Don't EVEN get me started on the "Oil for Food" circus. The UN is the epitome of corrupt government!
5)A non tangential (to our discussion) fraud that the UN brazenly pulled was the suppression of the second or third IPCC report and subsequent "editing" TO MAKE IT READ THE OPPOSITE OF THE SCIENTIFIC DATA!
So I'm expected to take them seriously regarding warming? A group that represents communists and dictators as much as democracies? It's all about control, and redistribution of wealth. They want to take our money AND tell us what to do. Sounds like an institution created by a Communist...
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weather
The problem is, weather is not climate. Most define climate as weather over time. Funny thing is, if you can't accurately predict the weather 5 days from now, how do you...
Anyway, there are a couple of multidisciplinary scientists who have an interesting take:
Some problems/systems/questions are too complex and too "big" for us to understand or predict. Science has limits because humanity is limited, I suppose. My 2 cents0 -
Whatever term you use
Weather or climate .... not the issue .
Yeah , we all know predicting the " weather " is mostly a crapshoot the further out you try to forecast it . But you really don't need multidisciplinary scientists to tell you the temps might be higher this year after a steady rise in the past decade or 2 . Is there anywhere on Earth where the average temperature has stayed steady or fallen in the past decade ? Has a steady increase in temperature happened in the past since we've been keeping track ? I've done some research about global warming last year but this was one part of the subject I didn't look into enough .
You personally Tom , do you think people have any effect on the overall temperature rise of the Earth ? Do you think global temps are rising ?0 -
Ron
I don't think anyone has denied that the overall temps are on the rise at this point in history, however temps have always been on the rise or on the decline over time. I don't believe that there is enough evedence to substanciate the fact that man is the cause, period, which is the claim of JR. I think man may be having an influance in the rise at this point but I don't believe that it is major cause at this time. So if the temps were on the decline I would say the same thing but slowing the cooling a tad. I think man gives himself too much credit in being able to control what happens on earth, influance we do, but total control is beyond us mortal beings.
I have seen pictures of the second fastest river in current frozen to the pioint where one could walk from
Maine to NH and back on ice. I am glad I hve not seen that in my lifetime. Now times in history when Greenland was in a climate condusive to growing crops
For the first century or so of their Greenland colonization, the Vikings and their descendants enjoyed a reasonably prosperous and pleasant life there. Greenland's climate c. 1000 A.D. was in an extraordinarily warm phase, and the name Eric chose for his new land may not have been quite the real-estate promoter's con-job as has been assumed. Even 350 years later, after a general global cooling had altered Greenland's climate for the worse, Ivar Bardson wrote that " On the mountains and lower down grow the best of fruits, as big as apples and good to eat. There also grows the best wheat that exists." Life in Greenland was hardly the rough outpost existence we might expect....
However by 1200, climatic change allowed the arctic ice pack to creep farther southward, making navigation in Greenland waters increasingly hazardous -- even in summer. Ships came now only sporadically, and some years none called at all. In 1261, the Greenlanders felt obliged to accept union with Norway and subjection to the Norwegian crown, in return for which two ships would be sent per year. This effectively shut the Hansa markets off from Greenland trade, and sometimes even the promised Norwegian vessels didn't make it through the ice. The colonies' decline accelerate
To what degree the warmer climate of the Medieval Warm Period may have simplified westward progress through the Northwest Passage during the earlier phases of Greenland's Viking history remains unknown, but the fact that it was warmer may shed further light on some of the northernmost Viking excursions along the western coastline of Greenland itself. As it so happens, archaeological research in the area around Coberg and Skraeling Islands on the Canadian side of Baffin Bay indicates a possible Viking presence just off the south-east coast of Ellesmere Island. In other words, at a point where the Vikings would be well positioned to make a run into the Northwest Passage and also augment their food supplies before doing so. Among other things the research in question uncovered evidence of a food production line, iron boat rivets and hints of a Viking presence as described below:
A good report to read is called Polar Warming
http://www.holloworbs.com/polar_warming.htm
All I am says is that climate has had its ups and downs through history but can anyone tell me just how much man has caused this through history.
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> Weather or climate .... not the issue .
>
> Yeah ,
> we all know predicting the " weather " is mostly
> a crapshoot the further out you try to forecast
> it . But you really don't need multidisciplinary
> scientists to tell you the temps might be higher
> this year after a steady rise in the past decade
> or 2 . Is there anywhere on Earth where the
> average temperature has stayed steady or fallen
> in the past decade ? Has a steady increase in
> temperature happened in the past since we've been
> keeping track ? I've done some research about
> global warming last year but this was one part of
> the subject I didn't look into enough .
> You personally Tom , do you think people have any
> effect on the overall temperature rise of the
> Earth ? Do you think global temps are rising ?
Yes, global mean temperatures have been rising. And human activity has little or nothing to do with it. Why did the "global mean temperature drop from about 1930 until the 70's? Human CO2 output was skyrocketing during that time. It led many of the current High Priests of Warming to declare a coming ice age! Time magazine featured the coming ice age on it's cover.
Another fantastic quotation that I'd like to hear a rebuttal for. Use as many exclamation points as needed.
"The carbon dioxide levels on Earth have risen from approximately 0.028% to 0.036% in the last few decades. It is a major stretch to compare this with Venus at a 96.500% carbon dioxide level and promote an uncontrollable runaway condition. Earth in its early history, 385 million years ago, had an atmosphere with 10 times the present carbon dioxide levels. Those elevated levels did not produce runaway global warming then, so why should we theorize that it would today?
Would anyone care to guess how many planets and moons in our solar system are experiencing significant warming? Not too many energy hogging Americans living in liquid methane on other planets, methinks.
I'm going to start shouting here, consider yourselves warned.
IT'S THE SUN! AMAZING! INCREASED SOLAR ACTIVITY IS THE ONLY THING THAT CORRELATES DIRECTLY WITH THE WARMING PATTERNS, INCLUDING THE COOLING MEASURED OVER FOUR DECADES IN THE 20TH CENTURY! OR IS IT THE GREATEST COINCIDENCE EVER THAT MARS, JUPITER, VENUS, PLUTO, TRITON, (CONTINUE AD INFINITUM) ARE ALL WARMING TOO!
ALL 928 KOOL-AID DRINKERS ASKED ABOUT THE WARMING OF OUR SOLAR SYSTEM STUCK THEIR FINGERS IN THEIR EARS AND STARTED SINGING "LA LA LA LA LA LA..." UNTIL ADMINISTERED HALDOL AS A CHEMICAL RESTRAINT.
ha. ha-ha. ha-ha-ha. Tom0 -
Hmmmm...
I also think that view is shortsighted a bit.
While there are many factors - and potential factors in what is happening to the earth's climate (including solar); I think it is not appropriate to dismiss the concept that mankind has had some effect on it.
Do I think mankind is resposible for the vast majority of it. No, I am skepticle of that position. However, it is possible that in the end it might be true.
Do I think that mankind is responsible for at least a small part of it. Yes, and I think there is enough evidence to support that conclusion.
Might it be a situation where mankind and nature is about equal in their effects. That would not surprise me in the end.
Keep in mind that there are many more forms of how mankind has affected the earth than just CO2 emmisions. Many other gasses emmitted to the atmosphere, many resourse use or aminal growth use changes. There are a bewildering array of possible things and I find it disconcerting when people only focus on just CO2.
Thus, we should be trying to limit our effects on the earth.
In the end, mankinds effects on the earth are directly linked to our livestyles.
In order to progress beyound a basic agricultural, hunter, roamer lifestyle we much utilize concentrated energy sources. Use of those energy resources allow us to have modern lifestyles. That does not mean we have happier or even that much healthier lifestyles. But we do have lots of power intensive toys and at least 138 TV channels. Most of our modern buildings are energy intensive as well (I've seen an estimate that fully 1/2 of the energy used in the US is used to heat and cool our buildings).
If the third world increases their lifestyles to modern US and Western European standards the worldwide energy usage will skyrocket. That is why China is expected to bring onlin over 500 power plants and India over 200 power plants by 2012 (5 years from now). Less than 1% of those will be nuclear because "the West, and Russia" has up to now restricted severely access to nuclear power plant technology to those countries (which is fortunately now changing - but will not have much effect until after 2012).
I know that it is not a popular concept; but in the end what is really needed is for the US and the world to switch to less energy intensive lifestyles. There are many possible ways for that to play out without providing much restrictions on what we actually do in life. I am also sure that it would take 50 - 100 years for it to fully maturate. But that is what we should be focues on. How do we reduce overall energy usage in the activities we do. Replacing items needlessly is also a huge energy waste as well. I'm not saying that we should never replace or tear down old structures. I think a better look at recycling and reuse is in order along with our "disposable" society on many things.
We need to really start building more nuclear power plants - just from a financial standpoint if we want long term low cost electricity and conversion to a hydrogen economny in the future.
Individually, and as business professionals, we should be installing the most efficient heating systems for homes with normal occupancy - and look at other ways to effectively reduce energy usage.
I know that many will not agree with that; and of course someday other significant cost effective power sources will be available.
But, we should be working on what we can do now and in the near future.
Perry
Do all have a nice day.0 -
You know Tom
You might have some valid points . Can you tell me where you came across the idea the Sun is the root cause of our global warming ? Was there an increase or change in solar wind patters in space ? Is the sun output higher these past few decades ? Seriously , I haven't heard this theory till today .
Where did you find out there was a mean temp drop from the 30s to the 70s ? How much of a drop ? How does it compare to the temp rise of the last 3 decades or so ?
The " fantastic quotation " you cite , how can anyone possibly give you rebuttals if we don't know the numbers were made up ? Who wrote it ? What study ? Who funded the research ?
C'mon buddy , throw us a bone .
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Thank you Perry
You have invested quite a few hours and probably a novella's worth of words to this thread , and I know this subject is very important to you . Which makes me glad you stay away from Kool-Aid barbs , calling for The Wall to go back to it's Wild West / anything goes roots , and telling people to throw their laptops out a window . You're a class act and I appreciate everything you wrote on the subject , even though I might diagree a bit about the overall influence we have on Mother Earth .
You have a great day also Perry .
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