Balancing my Heating system . Help .

misterheat

Hi all, last year i had a new gas fired Burnham Independence IN 5 150000 BTU put in by a local plumber. (now a know a non steam savy plumber )The house was built in 1927. In 1990 a Burnham 130000 BTU gas fired unit was installed replacing the original monster converted coal burner(OIL) . Last year with the arrival of my first son i decided to have a new boiler put in . The old one was showing signs of wear after 25 years . As stated its a Burnham IN 5 and this plumber basically slid it in place and didnt change any of the old header pipe and painted a few pipes, cranked up the pressuretrol to 4 and called it a day . So in the beginning there was a lot of knocking and a ton of rust got back to the boiler . I believe he came back and used an additive and skimmed it which somewhat solved the bounce in the sight glass . I have very minimal bounce now during operation . Since i have found this amazing site HEATINGHELP.COM . I have been able to tweek the system , i have lowered the pressuretrol to 2 lbs and the dif to .05 . I have checked the pitch on all my radiators . I have installed proper valves in different areas to speed up slower heating rads and slow down the hot ones (mostly up stairs) . I insulated the main run and return lines . I still have a little insulating to do around the boiler and a few small spots . QUESTION 1: is 2 lbs still to high or should i try lower ? QUESTION 2 : How do i figure my EDR ? because i suspect 150000 BTUs is slightly over sized . Its not a big house (slightly drafty in a few spots ). QUESTION 3 ; Is the slight bounce in the sight glass ok ?QUESTION 4 ; Can you recommend a good thermostat ? ive attached a few pictures . thanks so much

Jamie Hall

Well let's see. A slight bounce in the gauge glass is fine. Not to worry, unless you are a real fanatic. Boiler piping is OK. Not the best, perhaps -- but again, unless you are a real fanatic, not to worry. If you can persuade your pressuretrol to work with a cutout of 1.5 and a cutin of 0.5, it would be better.

Figuring the EDR isn't all that hard. There are tables for various radiator types available, or a few pictures and dimensions and we can get pretty close. The bottom line on oversize, though, is whether (or how much!) the boiler cycles on pressure while heating the house. If it doesn't cycle much, you're fine.

Thermostats? I think most of use are pretty happy with anything in the Honeywell VisionPro series. Just make sure that you set it correctly for steam!

nicholas bonham-carter

Doublecheck the installation instructions for that size boiler to make sure whether both risers from the boiler must be used.
I am sure your main vent is undersized, as that looks like a Gorton #1. Put a couple of #2's on an antler there, and your balance will improve. You may need to slow down some radiator vents afterwards.
2. If any "cleaners" have been been added to the boiler, then do some frequent blow downs to remove the sediment they produce, before it hardens.--NBC

Abracadabra

130K before... 150K now. What led to the decision to install a larger unit? I'm guessing you are quite oversized.

Dave in QCA

You have indicated that your balancing your system but I don't think you mentioned the radiator vent that you are using. For systems that don't have unusual configurations, my favorite is the Hoffman #40. It is a nice slow vent and that, combined with fast main venting should give you very balanced distribution to your radiators.

misterheat

Im new to steam so if my questions sound silly apologies in advance . Can a blow down be down with out a King valve at the top ?Thanks for your help

misterheat

As far as cycling . I rarely see the gauge move . The only time ive seen it move and cycle mabey twice was during a big call for heat in the morning a 3 degree rise(67 to 70 degrees ) on some cold cold mornings . When you say set the thermostat for steam ,can you elaborate on that a little . thanks very much !

Abracadabra

misterheat said:

As far as cycling . I rarely see the gauge move . The only time ive seen it move and cycle mabey twice was during a big call for heat in the morning a 3 degree rise(67 to 70 degrees ) on some cold cold mornings . When you say set the thermostat for steam ,can you elaborate on that a little . thanks very much !

a 0-30 psi gauge is useless to determine normal steam boiler operating pressure.

misterheat

Not Knowing enough about steam heat, the decision to step up from 130 btus to 150 btus came from the plumber who walked around the house and looked at my radiators he also commented on a few cathedral ceilings i have . Honestly they were a recommended plumber for my area . House is about 1800 Sq ft . 3 decent size radiators upstairs and 5 radiators down stairs . I will get the dimensions tonight when i get home from work . I also want to add one more radiator soon . AS FAR AS VENTS ARE CONCERNED the plumber put a bunch of those vari vents with that horizontal sliding adjustment .the brand name escapes me at the moment .they run about 20 bucks a piece . i will look into the vents you recommended . thanks

Fred

misterheat said:

QUESTION 3 ; Is the slight bounce in the sight glass ok ?QUESTION 4 ; Can you recommend a good thermostat ? ive attached a few pictures . thanks so much

Question 3: a 1/2 to 3/4 inch bounce is very typical.
Question 4: If you get a Honeywell VisionPro, when you install it, there are instructions that come with it that will tell you how to program it. One of the program steps is for the type of heating system, 1 (which sets it for 1 cycle per hour) is for steam, 2 (2CPH) is for hot water heat, 3,4,5,6 are for heat pump, forced air, etc.
With the Low water cut-off that you have, you don't have to do a "blow Down" but once a month or so (during the heating season), you should open that spigot at the bottom on the back of the boiler and drain water out until it runs clear, then add water to the boiler to bring it back up to the normal water level.
A Blow down does not require any gate valves. Some Low water cut-off's have a drain valve on them (Like the MCDonnell-Miller #67) that you open once a week to blow out sediment from the boiler.

Abracadabra

misterheat said:

Not Knowing enough about steam heat, the decision to step up from 130 btus to 150 btus came from the plumber who walked around the house and looked at my radiators he also commented on a few cathedral ceilings i have .

Did he calculate the attached EDR by measuring the radiators? I'm guessing no, from what you are saying.

misterheat said:

Honestly they were a recommended plumber for my area .

Plumbers are unfortunately not always knowledgeable steam guys.

misterheat said:

House is about 1800 Sq ft . 3 decent size radiators upstairs and 5 radiators down stairs .

You don't size a boiler using the sq.ft. of the home. You calculate the EDR of the radiators and find a boiler that matches that figure.

misterheat said:

AS FAR AS VENTS ARE CONCERNED the plumber put a bunch of those vari vents with that horizontal sliding adjustment .the brand name escapes me at the moment .they run about 20 bucks a piece . i will look into the vents you recommended . thanks

I'm guessing Heat-Time VariVents? Something like these?


I'm not a big fan of those.

misterheat

Yes those are the valves he put in . You nailed it . I will get the Hoffmans that were mentioned previously . I remember the plumber counting the sections of my radiators .He really didn't measure them . I also will look into a Honeywell visionpro. NEW QUESTION; The water in the sight glass looks dirty at the bottom and clean on top . Im wondering about cleaning it ? When I drain a little water out of the boiler it seems clean to me ,could it be that the junk is just in the sight glass from the skimming, if so is it hard to clean sight glass ?I also tested the PH of my water and it was between 8 and 9 which I believe is right where it should be . thanks again

Fred

Close those valves at the top and bottom of the sight glass and then you can take the nuts off at the bottom of the sight glass, lift the sight glass out and clean it. Put it all back together and open both valves again.
Also, Hoffman makes a valve called a 1A's that have a dial on top with six settings that allow you to increase or deccrease the orifice size for air flow. I use those and like them. Sometimes a #40 may be just too small for some radiators and you can adjust the 1A' to a #40 setting. You may want to order a couple of those if the 40's don't work somewhere.

misterheat

Thanks for the info on the sight glass. I will also be at the plumbing supply on monday and i will get the valves you described . I also want to purchase a new gauge so i can really see my internal pressure . can you recommend a good gauge ,is it a 0 to 5 lbs gauge i am after ??Currently have that 0 to 30 lb gauge which rarely moves . thanks

Fred

misterheat said:

Thanks for the info on the sight glass. I will also be at the plumbing supply on monday and i will get the valves you described . I also want to purchase a new gauge so i can really see my internal pressure . can you recommend a good gauge ,is it a 0 to 5 lbs gauge i am after ??Currently have that 0 to 30 lb gauge which rarely moves . thanks

Most of us use the Wiki 0 - 3PSI gauge. The 0- 5PSI is ok but not as precise as the 0-3PSI See link: http://www.valworx.com/product/low-pressure-gauge-25-0-3-psi
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misterheat

regarding Blow Down . Im a little fussy on the process. Basically you build pressure to about 10 pounds and this creates a force internally strong enough to free up the crud(for lack of a better term) and then open the mud leg to let it out while simultaneously adding water ?

Fred

Oh No. You don't need to do a "Blow Down" on your boiler. That only has to be done on boilers that have a manual blow down on the Low water Cut-off. Your boiler has a probe type.
All you need to do, once a month is open the valve at the bottom of the boiler and release water until it runs clear to clean out the mud leg. Do that when the boiler is not running or you can do it with the boiler running but be very careful opening the valve as the wate will ve boiling hot. Do not increase the pressure of the boiler in any way. That is only done on an initial installation of some boilers and very, very rarely during the life of those boilers, under certain circumstances.

vaporvac

My boilers' instructions (Slantfin Intrepids) actually suggest a blow-down under pressure, so I guess it does depend on the manufacturer. They also suggest that for skimming, but I haven't done either. It frankly kind of scares me. C

Fred

vaporvac said:

My boilers' instructions (Slantfin Intrepids) actually suggest a blow-down under pressure, so I guess it does depend on the manufacturer. They also suggest that for skimming, but I haven't done either. It frankly kind of scares me. C

Yea, I knew Slantfin suggests it but he has a Burnham (which I also have) and that is not something he wants to do.

misterheat

ok understood . i was weary of doing it anyway. still learning . There is a video on this site that explains Blowdown and it mentioned turning the pressure up but that system had a king valve and a different low water cut off .I already empty the mudleg periodically till it runs clear . thanks

Fred

misterheat said:

ok understood . i was weary of doing it anyway. still learning . There is a video on this site that explains Blowdown and it mentioned turning the pressure up but that system had a king valve and a different low water cut off .I already empty the mudleg periodically till it runs clear . thanks

Yea, that video probably show a McDonnell Miller float type Low water Cut-off on it.

misterheat

After re watching now, it did say that it is performed when the boiler is new . I missed that the first time around . thanks

misterheat

Does the header pipe on my boiler look like it is the proper distance from the water line ? I wondering about wet steam . thanks

Fred

misterheat said:

Does the header pipe on my boiler look like it is the proper distance from the water line ? I wondering about wet steam . thanks

Minimum of 24" from the water line. it looks like you are 28" to 30". I'd say you are good.

misterheat

OK ,thank you . I have a NEW QUESTION. On my main run out of the Boiler, towards the end of the 2 inch main run before it elbows in to the smaller return lines back to the boiler there is old tee from a radiator that is no more in use so the pipe was removed and the Tee was capped . WITH THAT SAID . After rereading some of Dans book today it mentions Vents at the end of the MAIN . ** Can i use a reducer coupling and put a Hoffman vent there ??? There are 2 more operational radiator runs after the capped TEE(where i want to put a vent ) if that makes a difference . WIll this make the system heat up faster ?? side note . i currently DO NOT have a short cycling problem . I'M curious if it helps the system become more efficient and heat up a little quicker . thanks very much

Fred

Not the ideal place to put a vent. You can put it there but it will only vent the Main up to that point and the radiators after that vent will be left to push the remaining air out of the remainder of the Main plus the air in the radiators themselves. If you are going to invest in good vents, put them where you will get the best use of them, at the end of the Main, after the last radiator.

misterheat

How do you add a vent to the Main at the end ? Do you repipe at the end right before it elbows and turns back toward the boiler ? There is a new vent at the end of the return line 1 1/4 pipe near the boiler . When we say main does that just refer to the 2 inch pipe that delivers the steam . thanks

Fred

You can build an antler out of 1/2 or 3/4 inch pipe nipples and Tee's/elbows and put multiple vents on that return near the boiler. You really don't need to vent returns but that is an acceptable way to vent the Main that is associated with that return, you just need to add a little more venting to accommodate the air that is in that return pipe, in addition to the Main itself.

misterheat

gotcha thanks Fred !!!!!

j a_2



j a_2

Believe it or not, and I don’t agree u s boiler for I N 4/5/6, only suggests one riser…That boiler should in my opinion have 2 risers up a min. 24 in.off the N W L…Even better 24 in off the top of boiler…if I remember the N W L is 28.5 in. off the bottom of the unit…I also like to see a dropped header…If not already done get a skim port min. 1 1/4 opened…and use it…Take the additive out….King valves are very nice but not in my opinion really needed on small, boilers like yours,so no panic there…Gerry Gill and his partner created a great venting chart I believe its still downloadable…They clearly put a lot of hard thinking into it…I also believe they donated to a charity the very small fee they charged…FYI any installer the looked at anything other than the attached load and as well as was worried about high ceilings is in the wrong business….

j a_2

Your also a very nice guy to be doing his work for him while he is sunning himself in Florida on your money

misterheat

Thanks J A . I will be doing some re piping once it gets warm out which gives me a lot of time to figure out how to re pipe it correctly . I also like the idea of a dropped header from what im learning that helps prevent water tagging along i believe. I will also put in the skim port along with a 0 - 3 lbs gauge. there is also a pitch issue in that one pipe towards the back of the boiler near the wall . it comes out of the plum vertical pipe and really has no pitch. thank goodness the knocking is very minimal. I will look for that venting chart . Is it on this site OR IS A GOOGLE THING ? THANKS to everyone .

j a_2

It was on this site…And it really is a good idea to wait…The guys and girls on this site are very good..Some of us don’t always agree but thats not a bad thing..When it comes to code issues its impossible to dictate, Every state has there own codes…Here in Mass. its not just a code its the law...

misterheat

i found the chart thanks . I wont be doing anything for a few months and will research a lot codes ,opinions etc .. thanks proper planning prevents piss poor performance . That's what my welding teacher used to tell us . the 6 P's of success !!! thanks again

Fred

OK, I'm totally lost on the turn this thread took???

j a_2

It went a little to the right then to the left..Then straight...

misterheat

sorry if its all over the map . We were discussing venting the main and then someone mentioned using both mains instead of just the one like mine is piped . Sorry if we zig zagged a bit . I thank you all for all the help . It is much appreciated thanks Mark

Fred

misterheat said:

sorry if its all over the map . We were discussing venting the main and then someone mentioned using both mains instead of just the one like mine is piped . Sorry if we zig zagged a bit . I thank you all for all the help . It is much appreciated thanks Mark

On a boiler that size, 1 riser out of the boiler is aceptable. Granted using both tappings would be better if you decide to repipe it but it is not essential, especially since you only have one 2" Main. There is always room for improvement but you do have to decide if the return is worth the effort.

misterheat

I know im off topic but quick question . I have 1 radiator run that is piped in copper i believe 1 inch . what happens to the velocity of the steam when it reduces to such a smaller diameter when coming off a 2 inch main thanks . i have been slowly lowering my pressuretrol and when adjusted it a hair below 2 lbs this radiator with the copper run didnt heat up . Its has a new valve as a few days ago .

Fred

On a 1 pipe system, the smaller the pipe, the more resistence there is for the steam to get through. Also, there has to be enough room in that pipe for the returning condensate and if the pipe is too small, depending on the size of the radiator, there just may not be enough capacity to fill the radiator. What is the EDR of the Radiator? Why is it piped in copper? Was that done at the time the new valve was installed?