New Boiler and Piping

bkdymc · October 20

I am in need of a new steam boiler. My current one is a Weil McLean EGH 115. 500,000 BTU's input.

When I first saw it, It was so big that it scared me to death. So I ran out and purchased Dan's book. I knew my house was big-but not that BIG!! After reading Dan's book and doing some research I came up with 19 radiators 741 EDR with 15 feet copper fin-tube hot water loop 37.50 which totaled 778.50 square feet of EDR. So I think I need a smaller boiler. I'm looking at the Peerless 64-07 345,000 BTU's input I think it's the closest match not only that but it's a similar set up. Since I'm old and my long term memory is better I'd hate to walk in the basement and find a complete stranger! This way I'll still be able to somewhat recognize it as time goes on. 😁 After reading Dan's book I thought nothing could scare me more than the boiler until I got a good look at the near boiler piping. I'm going to post some pictures and I would really appreciate the best way to re-pipe this monster. Also thinking of getting the near boiler piping package. That way whoever does the job can't mess it up any worse than it is. I'm in Bloomington/Normal, Illinois . I had a couple of heating contractor's come in and when they said "What's the problem?" I knew I was in trouble! I have someone else coming out tomorrow on the phone they sound a little more promising. It looks like around here there's not a lot to choose from when it comes to steam. If you have any suggestions it would be greatly appreciated. I've seen the amazing help you have given others on this site. I've never been very lucky, so if you're not able to help me don't worry it's not you it's me!😥

In first picture left insulation on to see layout better. Not asbestos.

bkdymc · October 20

I forgot to add that it's a one pipe system but has one 2 pipe radiator as shown in photo. Thanks

mattmia2 · October 20

you have the header from the old boiler there. there are some contractors in il here, look at the find a contractor t the top. mostly in chicago but some ight do work up there.

EBEBRATT-Ed · October 20

Your doing the right thing getting the size correct. That's #1

Both Peerless and Weil McLain are good boilers

Now to find the right contractor. Look on this site under "Find a contractor" I know there are some in Chicago, don't know if that is near you.

A few contractors on here will consult on a job that is too far away. You find a local who does good work but is not a steam expert and have him work with the consultant.

Doesn't look too difficult to fix the piping up.

mattmia2 · October 20

what does the trim on the radiators look like? is this 2 pipe?

neilc · October 20

identify the start of the mains at the ceiling, identify the ends of returns at the ceiling or floor,

cut there, and remove everything in between,

looks like a couple boilers been there before, and they just tied in where they saw, , ,

pipe the new, right sized boiler as per the install manual piping page(s),

bkdymc · October 20

The one contractor wanted to attach the new take off to the mains where the old one was. Where it meets in the center and it T's off and goes Left and right. I don't think that's right is it?

bkdymc · October 20

One guy wanted to connect the takeoff where It is now to the T going left and right I don't think that's right is it?

EBEBRATT-Ed · October 20

Everything around the boiler should be reworked IMHO.

The boiler has to be installed with a new header the way it shows in the install manual. None of this connect here connect there"

Each steam main supply (looks like you have 3) shouldn't be teed together. Each main should be brought down to the new boiler header separately.

One main looks like it may be counterflow so that would need a drip if it is counterflow

Pumpguy · October 20

You might try talking to Randy Houston, Houston Plumbing in Paxton, IL. Phone 217 379 2329.

They're about 50 miles from you.

Over the years I've dealt with Randy on a few steam jobs.

bkdymc · October 20

Since I'm wanting whichever contractor to use the near boiler piping kit that comes with the Peerless 6407 so they would need to add 2 more takeoffs from the header? Since there's only so much space before it drops down to the return what would be the best way to do that?

neilc · October 21

each main should drop down to your header separately,

I saw that tee up there, looks like it wasn't right from day 1, that's why I said identify the main(s) and cut, start fresh from there down to the header,

a good steam guy would work it out,

bkdymc · October 21

Thank you Ed. The counter flow that you're referring to I believe is the one 2 pipe radiator I have on the first floor. It does have a return but, they must of had issues you can see staining on the false ceiling they installed. They drilled and tapped an air vent onto the radiator itself. From what I can see that's not correct. There is what looks to be a drip on the pipe that was plugged. Both pipes do angle back towards the boiler. The main much more than the return.

bkdymc · October 21

Can they move the boiler to the left extend the header to add the take offs? Is there a way to add one more take off and split that to feed the 2 mains? The one main on that side is just the one 2 pipe radiator. I've seen where they add a vertical T onto the takeoff. One continues straight up the other off the side perhaps to feed the 2 pipe radiator? When they show up tomorrow at least thanks to you guys I can tell them NO you can not tie into that rats nest on the ceiling. So whatever they throw at me at least I can run it past you guys. Thank you so much I appreciate all the help. Who knows after 71 years maybe my luck has changed. 😊I'll keep checking in case there's any new comments.

mattmia2 · October 21

the header in a box probably isn't the right choice if you have 3 mains. it could be modified but you might need the person that just knows how to do it.

there are multiple ways to do 2 pipe in 1 pipe. some of them would use a radiator vent so it could be ok. you need to be careful about steam following the return and closing the vent before the radiator vents.

mattmia2 · October 21

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1907098#Comment_1907098

that tee is the header from the old boiler that wasn't removed

bkdymc · October 21

Thank you ,I appreciate the information. The more I know the less they can hit me if they come out swinging.👊

EdTheHeaterMan · October 21

You might want to look at the Peerless 63-06. It is closer to your Actual Radiation Sq Ft without going over. The you can do something like this with 3 main risers and 3 dry returns that drop to the floor before getting connected together as a wet return. don't connect the returns above the water line.

I have chosen a Wye fitting as opposed to the tee with a close nipple but that is just a personal choice.

109A_5 · October 21

" I am in need of a new steam boiler. "

Why ???? Is it leaking ??

Most folks have an oversized boiler and poor piping. The cost of a new boiler and installation will buy a lot of gas.

What is your actual problem with this system ? Maybe I missed it.

HeatingHelp.com · October 21

@bkdymc I merged your duplicate discussions with the same title into this one. -Andrew

EBEBRATT-Ed · October 21

@bkdymc Stay away from the piping kit it probably have to be modified anyhow. A good installer will know what to do.

@Pumpguy has a recommendation above. I would sugges contacting them or look for another good steam installer.

We see a lot of "horror " story installs from uneducated installers. Don't be one of those jobs.

bkdymc · October 21

I'm sorry I should have mentioned it .The boiler has 2 leaks One on each side On the end sections . They're leaking near the bottom.

bkdymc · October 21

Ed You have to be careful with us old people. When I saw the picture I thought The fairy steam father Snuck into my basement and performed a miracle🤩. You guys are awesome you go above and beyond. I've sent some extra pictures from a different angle I didn't know if you thought some of the returns tied together above the waterline. There's 5 altogether and they go into The Mud leg. I didn't know if it was that or if the pipes just look too Ratty and they should be replaced. The one picture shows The only 2 pipe steam The takeoff and the return. If you can think of anything else let me know. I'm going to Check into those 2 other items you mentioned. Thanks

EdTheHeaterMan · October 21

The manufacturer's kit may use only one riser from the boiler. Two is better but not imperative. You will need to modify some of those kit pipes anyway to accommodate the three system risers to the mains. I might cut back even further and have 4 risers and 3 returns. Connect those returns at the floor level so they are well below the water line. That way steam or air from one main will not find its way to the other mains thru a return. If you can find the 4th return from that other main, then connect that one below the water line also. That is mentioned in Dan's book.

No wonder there are leaks in the end sections. I would bet money on the gaskets that hold the sections together were compromised as a result of the piping you have existing. there are no swing joints so that connector may be prying the sections apart and drawing them back together as the temperature of those pipes change. That poor WM never had a chance for a long and prosperous life when it was piped that way.

mattmia2 · October 21

in addition to the 2 risers both flowing in the same direction to the risers to the mains, there should be some sort of swing joint so that the sections of the boiler can move a bit, the way you have it the boiler and header could potentially pull each other apart as the expand and contract differentially.

bkdymc · October 21

mattmia2 Too bad you wasn't here when they put this thing together 30 years ago. You could have helped them find the instructions that were hanging on the wall behind the boiler. They probably put them there and forgot where they were. I'm sure with that kind of talent you don't need instructions. The piping you described is in the instructions. And guess where it's leaking On both ends. I think the boiler companies should have the piping Permanently engraved right on the front. That way these poor geniuses wouldn't have to waste all their talent figuring out how to pipe it if they lose the instructions. Perhaps a big red warning sign saying caution do not pipe this any other way. That way they can't say To the customer, ooh don't worry this is even better. Sorry After 52 years my poor wife can't take it anymore .She's so happy that I found some new friends. Well I can't say new friends cause I don't have any😪 . You can probably see why. But at least this gives her a break so she wanted me to send her love 💕and thank all of you. Thanks again I appreciate all the help.

neilc · October 21

we don't need no stinkin manual , , ,

109A_5 · October 22

Some manuals do have examples of the wrong ways, but I think you have to read the text to understand that they are examples of incorrect piping methods.

EdTheHeaterMan · October 22

I can now see that you have 5 returns piped the correct way and that does not need to be changed. You can decide to cut back and have 2, 3, 4 or 5 steam take-off risers from the header. You need to look at the design and see what fits best. I made it 3 system risers. but your steam installer can make it as many as you want in order to get even flow to all the different main pipes leaving the boiler room area. that can be done with main vents and radiator vets on a one pipe system. You need to play with traps on a two pipe system and I am not that well versed on two pipe steam. There are others here that know 2 pipe stuff better than I.

bkdymc · October 22

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1907120#Comment_1907120

Hi Ed I looked into the 63 06 . I don't know if this is correct but they're saying Output is 206.000 What I'm needing is 251.800. The EDR Is 645 And what I'm needing is 778.50 . As you can see I figured out how to quote. I'm a little behind because my wife wouldn't let me have a smartphone until she knew all my old girlfriends were either dead or in nursing homes. So hopefully I'll get better at this unless I forget everything I've learned😁Thanks again

bkdymc · October 22

Thank you Ed this really helps. These guys are kind of big and I'm old and skinny. But I have the right information on my side. Besides anything physical would be elder abuse I'm really good at playing that up.😁

ethicalpaul · October 22

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1907284#Comment_1907284

You don't need 778.5. You don't add EDR for a hot water loop. You nominally need 741 but that 741 already includes 33% that the boiler manufacturers put in there just for fun. You could almost certainly round down to the next smaller one.

EdTheHeaterMan · October 22

@bkdymc said: "Hi Ed I looked into the 63 06 . I don't know if this is correct but they're saying Output is 206.000 What I'm needing is 251.800. The EDR Is 645 And what I'm needing is 778.50 . As you can see I figured out how to quote. I'm a little behind because my wife wouldn't let me have a smartphone until she knew all my old girlfriends were either dead or in nursing homes. So hopefully I'll get better at this unless I forget everything I've learned😁Thanks again

My answer: "What @ethicalpaul said." Use the smaller boiler!

bkdymc · October 22

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1907290#Comment_1907290

Thank you so much I really appreciate the information . As they say live and learn. It's just so hard when you're forgetting faster than you're learning 😪 🙂.

bkdymc · October 23

Hi Guys I'm back again. Is this true They're saying that the 63 06 Was discontinued In December of 25 It looks like if it is the newer model is quite a bit lowerAt 646 Square feet. If that's the case can I go with the wheil McLean It puts out from what they say 733 Square feet I need the 741 Would this be close enough.And is it a good choice. Thanks

mattmia2 · October 23

the new 63x06 outputs 840 ft^2 when you add in the 33% pickup factor removed in the published value. that is still about a 13% pickup factor which is enough for typical residential systems.

109A_5 · October 23

The Series 63 and the 63-x are different models, you may have to look elsewhere to find one.

bkdymc · October 24

Believe me fellas I don't wanna waste your time. But if I don't get this right my wife will probably leave me. She's been a saint for 52 years putting up with me, one person can only take so much. But when I read typical residential system mattmia2 I thought maybe I better give some more Information . I don't know if it will makes any difference but I figure better to ask than not. This house is an old late Victorian built-in 1907. It has 4 floors of living space, 19 radiators. Over 4000 square feet. Had a large makeover probably in the teens. Added extra bathrooms. Large master bedroom Larger front room. That's where that one2 pipe steam radiator came in and a good size unheated enclosed sleeping porch. I know that there is a whole lot of extra cold space going up through the walls and Spaces a normal house probably wouldn't have. For instance I was installing an exhaust fan and stuck my head up through The ceiling of one of my added bathrooms . I saw the original roof . It was a nice space I might turn it into a spare bedroom😉. When I did the other bathroom guess what another spare bedroom. I believe sometime in the 50s 2 good size rooms in the basement and the entrance were remodeled to be used as living space They did a pretty nice job they covered the walls and the ceiling with the wire mesh and plaster cement really hard stuff. At that time it looks like they removed the insulation off the pipes in order to get heat in those areas. I had planned on changing out the boiler for some time and I had my calculations written down .So when it was mentioned that I don't need to add the hot water loop into the EDR calculation I remembered something about that. So I started to look back at my figures measurements and it finally came to me So my memory isn't completely gone. I just have to look real hard sometimes to find it🧐. I had all of my calculations written down and even my little Diagram, I was wondering why I left that in. As I was searching I found It. 37.50 square feet for the hot water loop That I didn't need And 36.7 I thought I did need for 59 feet Of 2 inch pipe that I might remove the insulation from like they had previously for heat. Since they were so close I just Left it . Well at the time I didn't make any notations I figured I would remember, well I was wrong. .That's why I calculated it into the numbers so that the boiler would be large enough to accommodate it if needed. That didn't include the entrance and other piping I might need to remove insulation to heat the space. I even remember thinking back then that maybe I should calculate the pickup factor by the 1.5 like Our great leader suggested in his book for those big old houses. Sorry I'm not suggesting that I've been welcomed into the gang, I just wanted to say that😁. I know that using the pipes for heat isn't a great idea. But I thought even if I didn't but the next owners did the boiler would be large enough to accommodate it. So do you think with the extra information and my life story the smaller boiler is still a go. I will be insulating everything in the boiler room and not removing any insulation It looks like the 63 06 It's still available as a complete knockdown I am hoping anyways. The 63X06 Being smaller I'm not so sure of. Just so you know I wrote this up 2 days ago. For the last 2 days I've been checking to see if I got any reply. After 2 days with no reply I thought you Guys had enough and dumped me. I was feeling pretty bad.Then my wife said hey look on the bright side ,they Put up with you for several days. That means you're getting better! Just then I glanced down and I saw Quickly links. and I thought hmm what's that. So I scroll down and I saw My drafts. And then I saw to the right number 2. And then I thought does that mean I didn't send my post. Well if that doesn't make you have pity on me nothing will . And I still can't find My other draft .Let me know what you think, I mean about the boiler. Please be nice my feelings get hurt really easy😪😁 Thanks for everything I really appreciate it.

109A_5 · October 24

I don't think you got dumped. Probably no one had anything significant to add. I've seen threads go on for many pages when folks has things to add.

bkdymc · October 25

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1907551#Comment_1907551

Thank you for trying to make me feel better that was nice of you. You might have missed the part where I said,I wrote this up 2 days ago and I forgot to hit post. My poor wife took it even harder than me .She said maybe if you didn't act so crazy you might have hung on a little longer. She was so happy when she found out I didn't hit post . It's been like a mini-vacation for her. Ever since I retired it's been really difficult . She keeps saying why don't you go play with your new friends online for a while😁. Thanks again

109A_5 · October 25

I am getting the feeling your wife may want you to have a Hobby, it seems some folks make their boiler into a Hobby, so they have lots of questions. I think the folks here do their best to answer the questions.

New Boiler and Piping

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