Vacuum system?

service_fitter502 · October 10

@Jamie Hall okay so yes there is what appears to be a f&t trap that goes back to the end of main. So on this particular system there are actually 2 end of mains.

109A_5 · October 10

I believe that trap is not an F&T trap, no float. It should keep any steam at the end of the steam mains out of the Vent Trap. If it failed you may get steam out of the vent of the Vent Trap. Possibly the reason why they closed the valve on top of the Vent Trap.

Jamie Hall · October 10

I thought it was an F&T on the Warren Webster diagram — but that really doesn't matter and I didn't want to bother our OP with that. Easier to replace it with a more modern trap — and a lot less hassle. I don't think much of F&Ts as vents anyway!

109A_5 · October 10

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1905980#Comment_1905980

The Webster Drip Trap may be a F&T trap or some other specialized device.

All I am saying is the trap that @service_fitter502 took a picture of in the system he is working on looks like a radiator trap and basically is being used as a crossover trap to vent the mains. If that trap failed open you may get steam out of the vent tapping of the Vent Trap. Possibly the reason why they put a closed valve on top of the Vent Trap.

Closed Valve = NO Venting = Horrible system performance = Unhappy customer.

service_fitter502 · October 15

after extensive searching for the correct literature on my particular system I concluded that my specific Webster set is the 0023 series and I found an install manual on eBay. Come to find out there was an entire check valve missing between the boiler pressure wet return and the return trap. I also got that awful near boiler piper straightened out as well.

Thank you all again for taking the time to give input.

Steamhead · October 15

Nice work!

Did you get rid of the red-handled valve on top of the vent trap?

service_fitter502 · October 15

@Steamhead i haven’t fired it back up yet, it’s still technically in there lol but I’m going to pull it out in the morning. I’m also going to plug the unnecessary Hoffman 75 in one of the return mains. Is there something that goes into that vent trap tapping if I’m not using it as a vacuum system and just venting air from it?

mattmia2 · October 15

if you keep the pressure under control with a vaporstat, the check valve isn't important. it is there to allow the the building return to be at a lower pressure than the main and the boiler, but if you keep the pressure in the mains low, you don't need the check valve.

Steamhead · October 15

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1906581#Comment_1906581

I'd put a Gorton #2 vent in there. That way if any steam came back from a bad trap, the vent would close and keep the steam from getting out.

109A_5 · October 16

The other drawing showed the missing check valve.

I probably remove the valve so it is not a restriction.

Since the whole system will vent through the Vent Trap if you plug the Hoffman 75, with just the one Hoffman 75 the mains may not vent in a balanced fashion. If you are not using vacuum to enhance the performance I would have multiple Gorton #2 vents or one B&J Big Mouth. You want the air to purge out as fast as possible.

service_fitter502 · October 16

@109A_5 all the diagrams I have found All show the check valves in place. My concern is that if the check valve between the vent trap and return trap is deleted, wouldn’t that cause steam to run up the vent trap instead of push pushing it into the pressurized return when the return trap fills up? Or were you talking about deleting the check valve between the pressurized return and the return trap?

109A_5 · October 17

Sorry I should have been more specific. I kind of switched topics after the image I posted of the check valves in the wet return. The text below the image was all about venting (up where the Red handled valve is) and nothing to do with the check valves in the wet return.

Probably should read something like this:

I'd probably remove the valve Red handled valve on top of the Vent Trap so it is not a restriction.

Since the whole system should vent through the Vent Trap, having the Hoffman 75 on one main only the system may not vent in a balanced fashion. So plugging it help balance things or put a second Hoffman 75 on the other main if it is a similar size.

If you are not using vacuum to enhance the performance I would have multiple Gorton #2 vents or one B&J Big Mouth. If you remove the Hoffman 75 from the main you could simply move it to on top of Vent trap with the additional vents added there. You want the air to purge out of the system as fast as possible.

Vacuum system?

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