Thermostatic mixing valve
Hello,
I plan to replace the aging valves on my heating system. At the same time I would like to add provision for primary/secondary boilers.
The building was built in 1959. Currently 3 zones. One of the zones is only heated to 50deg when the space is not in use.
The system does not have a thermostatic mixing valve to maintain proper return temperature. From what I've read here it would be a good idea to install one. Can I get feedback to models or brands that would be preferable?
Thank you
Comments
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Current boiler is 600,000 input 400,000 output
2in piping
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It may not be necessary. What type of emitters does the system have? If it has low mass and high temp emitters like fin tube or convectors or hydroair coils it likely will keep high enough return water temps to not require return water temp protection. If it is cast iron radiators it may need protection although with the small piping sized for a pumped system it probably will get up to temp quickly enough to not require return temp protection.
If the setback causes it to run such short cycles that the return water never gets up to temp then it will require protection.
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That vintage system has a good chace of having an oversized boiler. It would be good to do a heat load calculation to get an accurate, current load. You may need to solve a few issues related to 3 zones on a large boiler.
The heat load and the type of heat emitters would be good for us to know.
Bob "hot rod" Rohr
trainer for Caleffi NA
Living the hydronic dream1 -
Found the zone load calculations. Zone 3 was added. Its cast iron radiators. 2 pipe reverse return:
INPUT: 600,000 BTU
OUTPUT: 480,000 BTU
IBR: 360,000 BTU
1 ZONE: 1-1/4” FIN TUBE – 60 Linear feet = 1318 BTU per linear foot 80,000 BTU
2 ZONE: National US Radiator Corp. NH68-S9EK3Q4C = 70,000 BTU per unit heater 210,000 BTU
290,000 BTU Total Radiation
+ 15% for Boiler Piping
335,000 BTU Total Current Load
Future Addition Load 55,000 BTU
+
Total Current Load 335,000 BTU
APPROXIMATE Total Load = 390,000 – 420,000 BTU
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you size a hot water boiler by doing a heat loss calculation on the building. you will likely end up oversized by matching the radiation.
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the boiler already exists. its 1959 vintage
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I leave the
"2 ZONE: National US Radiator Corp. NH68-S9EK3Q4C = 70,000 BTU per unit heater 210,000 BTU"
zone set at 50deg
Should I be concerned about 50deg water returning to a 200deg boiler?
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I would watch the boiler operation from a cold start condition
Ideally the return hits 130 within 10 minutes of run time
If the boiler is oversized, you tend to see short inefficient cycling
If the system has a lot of large steel piping, lots of water, it may need some return temperature protection
So gather some runtime data to see if return protection is needed.
Bob "hot rod" Rohr
trainer for Caleffi NA
Living the hydronic dream2 -
I assume that "National US Radiator Corp. NH68-S9EK3Q4C" are convector cabinets?
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There are 3 ceiling hanging forced air radiators in a 60x60x12 garage area fed by 190ish feet of 2in pipe. I keep that room at 50 deg most of the winter. The return pipe feels cold for a while. Haven't measured with a thermometer or timed how long it remains cold.
It was the fire station for most of its life. They kept that room warm 24/7
I'm starting to second guess my 50deg water
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Its a little late in the season but I've had most of the pipe and fittings for a year now. Nicor is charging me around 220.00 delivery fee so the meter is off for the summer. Even in Jan/feb my gas usage barely hits 200.00. Most months its under 100 usage and 220.00 delivery. I burn waste oil in my auto repair business. Last fall purchased a buderus cast iron oil boiler converted to run waste oil. Plan is to have primary secondary pluming and possibly only run the big boiler Jan/feb and save 880+ in delivery fees.
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you could potentially slow the fans down or increase the water flow if the return isn't getting hot fast enough. or increase the cycle length on the thermostat if the call is satisfied before the return gets hot.
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Yeah, you really want to address that low return on a waste oil boiler. They get real messy when they run too cold.
Best option is to start the system and measure and time that return temperature condition.
There are a few options for addressing the return temperature if it is too low. Either with a valve, or properly applied variable speed pump.
Bob "hot rod" Rohr
trainer for Caleffi NA
Living the hydronic dream0 -
Can you tell me more the valve and variable speed pump options please
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If you need that full boiler output you are looking at moving around 48 gpm. That would take a sizable thermostatic mix valve, $$. Fixed temperature thermostatic mix valves from Caleffi or Danfoss specific to boiler protection go up to 1-1/4" 16 Cv. Too small for your application.
One option is a 4 way motorized mix valve. A 2" tekmar valve has a 60 Cv, which means with a 60 gpm flow you have a 1 psi drop across the valve. I think the 1-1/2 is cutting it too close.
The advantage to this valve is it protects the boiler but also allows you to modulate the temperature to the heat emitters based on an outdoor reset function.
A 4 way valve give you two mixing points, one protects the boiler return, the other blends the supply based on outdoor temperature.
A link to tekmar Info below on control settings and piping.
https://www.watts.com/dfsmedia/0533dbba17714b1ab581ab07a4cbb521/81322-source%7D
A variable speed pump method looks like this, but it would take an additional pump able to move 45- 48 gpm, the 4 way may be less $$.
In your case you would need a boiler circulator, the variable speed "crossover" circulator, and the pump(s) for distribution.
This schematic shows a buffer tank as a load, so just two circulators. You still need a system pump or pumps
Bob "hot rod" Rohr
trainer for Caleffi NA
Living the hydronic dream1 -
The fans are on a thermostat strapped to the pipe. Fans come on after the pipe is warm.
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