Saw my first vapor system

RayWohlfarth · May 29

I was looking at a 100 year old building with a vapor heating system. I was fascinated because it was my first. I made my son drive home so I could pull up info on them. By the way they were operating at 7 psi. LOL Here are some pics

mattmia2 · May 29

at least dunham's usually have radiator traps so they will mostly work at higher pressures.

Steamhead · May 29

Change that wimpy little Hoffman #4A vent on the air eliminator to a Gorton #2, and you won't need nearly as much pressure. Remember, that's the only air vent in the system.

RayWohlfarth · May 29

thanks @Steamhead there are other vents I plan to have them plug

EBEBRATT-Ed · May 29

I like the "stop leak" tape on the leaking fitting.

At least they have a phone jack by the boiler to call for service.

What are they burning? Gas I assume.

Doesn't look like the job has been monkeyed with.

Steamhead · May 29

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1897576#Comment_1897576

Where?

Reason I ask is the air eliminator is a Dunham, the return trap is a Hoffman, and one of the crossover traps looks like a Trane.

In the Dunham and Hoffman systems, there was only one air vent (except on very large systems where there might be several) and the mains were vented using crossover traps, as seen here. But many Trane systems used more than one vent.

If this mixing-and-matching extends to the entire system, there may be legit reasons for more vents.

Looking forward to more pics.

mattmia2 · May 30

the stop leak tape probably means that the boiler water has been circulating in the mains.

RayWohlfarth · May 30

More pics. One of the weird things is there was little if any pitch on the steam pipes. The customer said, there have been lots of leaks at the ends or each steam run. They used a McM 150 wired into a Hydrolevel water feed Never saw that before.

Steamhead · May 30

The radiator valves and traps are Dunham, and look original, so that's our starting point. It looks to me like the system was slow to heat and someone tried to fix it by adding vents, but the vents they used are way slower than needed.

I'd need to see this system to be more specific, but another possibility might be to replace the crossover traps with larger ones like Big Mouths, which would vent more quickly. We'd have to measure the mains to see how much air is in them, so we could balance the system by making the steam reach the ends of both mains at about the same time.

Where is this system located? How about some boiler pics? Is there a boiler-feed tank?

Mad Dog_2 · May 30

We see I lot of mix-match Vapor Systems especially North of NYC. Mad Dog

mattmia2 · May 30

are those dunham valves the ones that have an orifice that looks like a thimble pressed in to them?

i think when the mains rust out like that it means there is a lot of water in them, the drip of condensate and steam usually doesn't rot the pipe out.

Intplm. · June 1

Was Connecticut a big boiler/boiler parts manufacturer way back when? I have seen a lot of items come up with Connecticut name plates lately.

Jamie Hall · June 1

Connecticut was, and the Springfield area of Massachusetts. In fact, CT was a big manufacturing state — once upon a time. Not any more.

EBEBRATT-Ed · June 2

MA & CT made a ton of stuff. No more. Its mostly all gone to southern states or to China. We are wAAAy overregulated around here.

Mad Dog_2 · June 2

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1897791#Comment_1897791

Much of upstate New York River Towns too..Part of the Rust Belt. Very sad 😔. Mad Dog

EBEBRATT-Ed · June 2

@Mad Dog_2

The way of the world. I was helping my cousin over the weekend set some 3000# concrete blocks he is making a foundation with. 6' x 2' x2'. He rented a big Lull type loader.

He had some concrete to chip so he went on Amazon and for $76 bought a 1 1/8" rotary hammer. Came with a few bits and 2 chisels. Looks fantastic and it worked.

We all know it is a throw away for that price but how do we compete with that? Like he said if it works for this job and quits he is not out any $$$.

I have no clue how they can make something like that ship it here and make a few $$$ on it for $76. Poor people in China mut work for $.05/hour.

Funny thing is his wife ordered it and hit the order button twice by mistake so he ended up with 2 of them. Called Amazon to return one of them and they don't want it back. They said keep it and we will credit you $30.

So he gave it to me for helping out.

BobC · June 4

I bought a 1/2" cieded impact wrench for $33 from you know where. dead wrinbger for the olf Craftsman. It's heavy as hell and works well. I wou;dn't buy it if I used it every day but for a seldom used tool why not?

Beagle96 · June 9

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1897594#Comment_1897594

Hi, this is my system and I had Ray come take a look to consult and he is making a report. This is the one I commented on your Youtube channel recently and is just northeast of Pittsburgh PA. The only water feed I'm aware of is the digital feed that is the square black box you can see in one of the pics. I'd have to go grab a picture and serial number for specifics. The boiler is the blue jacket in the one picture, which we determined is a Weil-Mclain, likely a LGB-9 (I had thought -4 or -5 originally.)

Some additional details- I acquired this building just before heating season last year and its been a headache ever since. Boiler was installed in 2019.. by a local HVAC company + the rep or boiler "expert" was supposed to be there, but I don't think they had a clue what they were doing. We do not know any other system history, so what has/hasn't been removed, monkeyed with, etc.. Its a quadplex where I provide the heat for all 4 units, but am blowing holes in parts of the system. I've replaced roughly 90% or so of the thermostatic steam traps (discs) as my first go-to, but there are a few that still haven't been replaced, particularly those at the end of the steam mains (x2) before the condensate return. Finding anyone qualified to work on it has been.. trying. Heating bills were over 1K a month. Pipes banging (although improved some with new traps).

Right now, once Ray's report comes back, I'm trying to weight options between trying to salvage this system or plan to replace it for all 4 units before October. Either way, its not looking great.

mattmia2 · June 9

if it is set up right, with the pressure controlled properly at the boiler and with the metering valves on the radiators, only the crossover traps on the mains should ever see steam, the radiator valves should limit the amount of steam in to the radiators such that it doesn't reach the return, if the pressure is properly controlled. As long as the radiator traps aren't failed closed they should be ok.

Jamie Hall · June 9

Those traps at the ends of the steam mains are REALLY critical. Make sure they are working!

That may be part of the pipes banging — but it's more likely, if this is an older building, that not all the pipes are still pitched evenly to drain. This is a matter which you can check — and fix quite easily!

I also would note that the heating bill is much more a matter of the heat loss of the building. The type of heating system — assuming that the boiler has been reasonably cared for (cleaned and adjusted) — has very little to do with it. Much better to figure out what needs to be done to bring the existing steam system back to operating as it should (your biggest expense there will be a vapourstat to control the operating pressure) and tightening up the building than to think about changing systems.

Saw my first vapor system

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