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OLD (1986) 36c84-209 crossover

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Mole4x4
Mole4x4 Member Posts: 9

Replacing that valve - per SupplyHouse.com they said 36c84-912 was a direct plug and play match. the 209 fires right up but only .5"wc - so weak. 912 lights pilot, but main doesn't open. Has same terminals, same 3-prong (one larger) w/ matching numbers - all looks good except mgv not opening. Bad valve? Sure wouldn't think any re-wiring should be done, but dunno.

Help is surely appreciated. And, don't have model/s# - tags are unreadable, but since 209 'works' I only need a direct plug and play match. TIA

Mike

Red Stripe Service Company

Comments

  • Steamhead
    Steamhead Member Posts: 18,625

    What pipe size? Can you see the BTUH input rating?

    All Steamed Up, Inc.

    Baltimore, MD, USA
    Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
    Oil & Gas Burner Service
    Consulting

  • Mole4x4
    Mole4x4 Member Posts: 9

    Just curious why you would need to know that - I can check. But, my question is: is the 912 a direct plug and play replacement as far as no different wiring needed? BTU of the 912 is correct. The main valve in the 912 not opening.

  • 109A_5
    109A_5 Member Posts: 4,157

    Looks like the 209 vs. the 912 is the pipe size.

    Is the inlet pressure good ?

    image.png image.png
    National - U.S. Gas Boiler 45+ Years Old
    Steam 300 SQ. FT. - EDR 347
    One Pipe System
    GGross
  • mattmia2
    mattmia2 Member Posts: 17,206

    need to set it up with a manometer and combustion analyzer, replacing a gas valve isn't a diy job.

  • mattmia2
    mattmia2 Member Posts: 17,206

    why did you replace it in the first place? if there is an inlet pressure problem it may lock out altogether.

  • 109A_5
    109A_5 Member Posts: 4,157
    National - U.S. Gas Boiler 45+ Years Old
    Steam 300 SQ. FT. - EDR 347
    One Pipe System
  • Jamie Hall
    Jamie Hall Member Posts: 27,514

    Sounds to me like a gas pressure problem, not a valve problem.

    Br. Jamie, osb
    Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England
    mattmia2
  • Steamhead
    Steamhead Member Posts: 18,625

    In case the cross-reference was wrong, this would tell us what we're looking for.

    All Steamed Up, Inc.

    Baltimore, MD, USA
    Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
    Oil & Gas Burner Service
    Consulting

  • pedmec
    pedmec Member Posts: 1,446

    Sounds like you need a mercury flame sensor

  • EdTheHeaterMan
    EdTheHeaterMan Member Posts: 12,444
    edited April 29

    I refer you to the question I would ask the technicians that worked for me. It happens to be my signature tag line just below this comment.

    I had two customers with that gas valve / mercury flame sensor set up. I seem to remember that the three prong Mercury Flame Sensor (MFS) was something that I replaced often on both customers. It seems that the original lasted 30+ years but the replacement MFS were problematic and didn't last very long. I actually remember that one of the MFS failes within one year and the place I purchased it honored the 1 year warranty. they were affiliated with Johnstone Supply at the time so the main office had a policy for that warranty. Today that store is a mom and pop supply house because they didn't have a large enough property to provide the minimum amount of floor / warehouse space and they only had street parking. Bye Bye Johnstone. Hello American Parts co.

    Edward Young Retired

    After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?

    mattmia2
  • Mole4x4
    Mole4x4 Member Posts: 9

    I sincerely appreciate ALL the postings and help here. I didn't do a good job laying out the problem - I'll try again, hopefully better.

    Input gas pressure is 6.5"wc. 1/2" pipe - 912 valve is 3/4, comes with 1/2" reducers. 209 valve works - BUT only 1/2"wc goes thru. Pilot strong and stays on, but 1/2"wc isn't enough to heat and flames are weak thru main burners. Put 912 on, strong pilot and stays on, 0"wc thru main valve - checking at valve exit tap of course. Put 209 back on, pilot/main all open so that rules out the mercury connection.

    My question is: is the 912 a DIRECT PLUG AND PLAY REPLACEMENT OR IS THERE SOME DIFFERENT WIRING CHANGE THAT NEEDS TO BE DONE THAT I'M NOT SEEING? Was matched at supplyhouse.com as a direct replacement with no wiring changes needed.

    I own a Commercial Refrigeration company - only mention that because this isn't my first rodeo. Don't do any residential but am doing this for an old couple down the street and they don't have money to change entire system - I'm just wanting to do this with no cost to them - they're a wonderful couple.

    Again - thanks to everyone for helping. I really mean it. I've tried to get ahold of the mfg but contstant hold

    Mike

    Red Stripe Svc Co

  • Mole4x4
    Mole4x4 Member Posts: 9

    Also - 209 valve sparks, pilot lights and is detected immediately and opens main. 912 sparks, lights pilot and stops sparking immediately w/ NO main opening.

  • Steamhead
    Steamhead Member Posts: 18,625

    With the gas pressure gauge on the inlet side of the gas valve- what happens when the main gas valve opens? Does the pressure drop or does it hold steady?

    All Steamed Up, Inc.

    Baltimore, MD, USA
    Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
    Oil & Gas Burner Service
    Consulting

    mattmia2
  • 109A_5
    109A_5 Member Posts: 4,157
    edited April 30

    Having two valves with almost the same symptoms is curious. I don't see why the wiring would be different, they are the same Model number series.

    If you truly believe there is a wiring difference, prove it, is there 24 VAC getting to the Main Valve solenoid coil when there should be. If not, why not.

    During a call for heat I would monitor the inlet gas pressure and verify there is 24 VAC across both solenoid coils with the focus on the main valve coil, since the pilot works.

    image.png
    National - U.S. Gas Boiler 45+ Years Old
    Steam 300 SQ. FT. - EDR 347
    One Pipe System
  • Mole4x4
    Mole4x4 Member Posts: 9

    "Having two valves with almost the same symptoms is curious. I don't see why the wiring would be different, they are the same Model number series."

    Not what I've been saying - the 209 (old valve) partially opens - that is the original problem. New one - 912 - doesn't open at all.

    Inlet pressure stays the same.

    What I am ONLY hoping to get here is: are these 2 valves completely interchangeable - plug and play - same wiring.

    Maybe my first post should have been - is a 36c84-209 wired EXACTLY the same as a 36c84-912.

  • Mole4x4
    Mole4x4 Member Posts: 9

    And - once again - thank you all for helping.

  • GGross
    GGross Member Posts: 1,940

    Pretty sure you would have to get direct with the manufacturer to see if they are exactly the same. everything I can find, including on supply house lists the new one as a cross reference, I have not seen any mention that the replacement is exactly the same. If you know how the original needed to be wired, and you have the instructions for the replacement, it should be pretty easy to determine if there are any required wiring changes.

  • Mole4x4
    Mole4x4 Member Posts: 9

    Yup thx GGross!

  • Mole4x4
    Mole4x4 Member Posts: 9

    Well - in fact that person last week that called me a **** was correct after all. I had only found the white rogers tech support phone which was always a loooonnngngg wait - just found their tech supp email and just emailed them. Will post what I find out in case anyone is interested.

  • 109A_5
    109A_5 Member Posts: 4,157
    edited April 30

    Troubleshooting is about following the evidence, not about what you want the defect to be.

    I doubt the 40 year old valve is exactly the same as the new one. It would not surprise me if the solenoid is different. Engineers like to eat so they redesign things that otherwise appear to work fine. And they may have simply redesigned it to do exactly what you are seeing, old valve possibly partially opening, the new one does not partially open under the same conditions.

    This electrical circuit looks easy to troubleshoot. You say the gas pressure is good so only the electrical remains.

    Also it would not surprise me that a defect with the Mercury flame sensor switch contact behaved differently with valves that are 40 years different. The pull in current may be different.

    And for all I know from here, the old main valve may simply be leaking and not really opening, hence the low pressure to the manifold.

    To me there is two things to prove, gas pressure and if the is there 24 VAC getting to the Main Valve solenoid coil when there should be. If not, why not.

    National - U.S. Gas Boiler 45+ Years Old
    Steam 300 SQ. FT. - EDR 347
    One Pipe System
  • Mole4x4
    Mole4x4 Member Posts: 9

    True - they are sending me a new valve. If same, I'll bypass flame sensor - I'd think I can - and see.

  • Steamhead
    Steamhead Member Posts: 18,625

    All Steamed Up, Inc.

    Baltimore, MD, USA
    Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
    Oil & Gas Burner Service
    Consulting

  • 109A_5
    109A_5 Member Posts: 4,157

    I would think voltage measurements would be easier and faster than changing the gas valve.

    National - U.S. Gas Boiler 45+ Years Old
    Steam 300 SQ. FT. - EDR 347
    One Pipe System
  • mattmia2
    mattmia2 Member Posts: 17,206

    it is very unlikely that the mv solenoid is opening but not opening al the way because of a bad flame switch or voltage, since it is driven by gas pressure it is all or nothing. you can check both with a voltmeter, in fact i think you can check the mv and pv solenoids directly with a voltmeter.

    it is possible a manufacturing defect like a bad diaphragm or something that got assembled wrong or is missing is causing it to not open fully.

    someone cold have set the regulator to the pressure you are seeing or it has the wrong spring or something.

    a regulator could be bad or a valve closed or some other restriction causing the pressure to drop on the supply when the mv opens.