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Heat sizing question

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zepfan
zepfan Member Posts: 464

does anyone have a rule of thumb to determine for the heat load for storage warehouse. In our area for residential with standard 8’6” ceilings I normally use 30 BTUs per square ft., and add in 10 percent for morning warm up, and extreme cold days.
The project in question would use LP gas unit heaters and is 51,100 cubic feet, 2544 square feet. That includes the 20 foot high ceiling which is bar Joyce then metal deck.
Any suggestions would be much appreciated. Thanks to all

Comments

  • GGross
    GGross Member Posts: 1,941

    do you live in alaska?

    EdTheHeaterMan
  • Jamie Hall
    Jamie Hall Member Posts: 27,517

    Why not do the Manual J calculations? For a structure like that they would take perhaps half an hour…

    Br. Jamie, osb
    Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England
    EdTheHeaterManGGross
  • EdTheHeaterMan
    EdTheHeaterMan Member Posts: 12,448
    edited April 16

    Here is why 30 BTUs per square foot does not work.

    image.png

    If you are using that method for all your estimates, then you will over size equipment on a regular basis. And you thought you were doing it the right way all these years, didn't you?

    If this does not make sense to you then PM me for a detailed explanation

    Edward Young Retired

    After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?

    GGross
  • zepfan
    zepfan Member Posts: 464

    thanks for the responses. We are in Maryland. The 30 btus per square foot was given to us a rule of thumb by our carrier representative 25 years ago when the switch was made from atmospheric furnaces, to draft induced. Most contractors in our area use the same rule of thumb

  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 27,707

    The correct answer is to perform a load calc

    Well insulated and sealed buildings built to today's codes should be in the 20 or lower number

    Oversizing equipment is a bad deal deal for fuel consumption, excessive cycling, and low return temperatures


    ACH on storage or warehouses could be a big number.

    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
    Mad Dog_2
  • Steamhead
    Steamhead Member Posts: 18,625

    All Steamed Up, Inc.

    Baltimore, MD, USA
    Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
    Oil & Gas Burner Service
    Consulting

  • EdTheHeaterMan
    EdTheHeaterMan Member Posts: 12,448

    I used to do a lot of work in southern NJ. I ran my own company then sold it and worked for another contractor. That contractor required the estimator to include a manual J load calculation to accompany the heating equipment size we put on our estimates. Then another contractor I worked for also required the load calculation to accompany the equipment selection for the sales contract. No calculation, no approval of the work. this protected their customers form a lazy salesman that was not going to take the time to measure up the home and specify using an arbitrary rule of thumb. then I operated my own business again. For over 35 years of working in southern, NJ every job that I quoted a new heating or air-conditioning system for has a manual J load calculation in the file with the sold contract.

    I can tell you from experience that selling a smaller heater or air conditioner than the competition that uses your method for sizing equipment was very successful for me. the prices came in lower as a result of using lower price equipment, (the 40,000 BTU unit was always less expensive than the 80,000 or 100,000 BTU unit of the same model equipment). Then when you needed to match up ductwork for the larger oversized equipment, or the pipe size for the larger boiler, they always came in higher with the number if register outlets and trunk duct sizes or pipe fittings on the boiler jobs.

    If you are going to do this for a living, you need to learn how to do heat loss calculations, or hire someone who does. And NJ and MD are in the same climate zone and I don't remember any of my heat loss calculations for a standard residential home being anywhere near 30, BTU per sq ft.

    How often are the warehouse doors opening in the winter? 10% 0r 50% of the time? what insulation is in the walls? How many windows are in the walls? Glass looses more BTUh per sq ft, than an insulated wall. So you 30 BTU per sq ft may be right on, or way off. Tough to tell.

    I was doing my own whole house load calculations in 1980. It's never too late to start to do it right.

    Edward Young Retired

    After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?

    hot_rodDCContrarianpecmsg
  • DCContrarian
    DCContrarian Member Posts: 1,477

    @EdTheHeaterMan , that is a really good post. Too many installers see Manual J sizing as just an unnecessary cost, you make a great case for how accurate sizing allows you to be more competitive in your bidding.

    Did you ever run into issues with competitors stealing your work? Basically matching your bid but undercutting you because they didn't have to cover the cost of doing the Manual J?

  • EdTheHeaterMan
    EdTheHeaterMan Member Posts: 12,448

    not so much. I had an interesting strategy. I would ask the potential buyer if they expected to get more than one estimate. (and encourage them to) Then I would measure all the rooms and windows etc and enter the info on a sketch pad. Sometimes I asked them to help hold the tape measure. During the conversation I would explain the process of the heat loss calculation. Build up a friendly relationship. Then I would let them know that I would go back to the office and prepare the load calk and then the estimate.

    Just before I would leave I would ask if I could be the last one to return after all estimates are collected That way the competition didn’t get that chance.

    When I returned, I would sit with them and answer every question until they finally decided what they were going to purchase. Usually, it was something that I offered

    There was one occasion when my competition forgot to include a chimney liner and their price for doing the same job was significantly lower. that he was reputable and that he would stand by his price even though he made a mistake. I recommend to the customer that they purchase this job from my competition. I later saw my competitor at a house and told him that I bid on that same job and he told me he lost money on that project.


    There I go, off on a tangent.
    Anyway, being the last guy there I was pretty much guaranteed the sale

    Edward Young Retired

    After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?

    DCContrarian
  • EBEBRATT-Ed
    EBEBRATT-Ed Member Posts: 20,394

    @DCContrarian

    That is why you have to be careful with the information you give your customer. Some (MOST?) will pedal your quote complete with price, load estimate and equipment choice to the other contractors without a second thought.

    He is not your "customer" until you get the job. Keep as much information to yourself as possible until he signs on the dotted line.

    DCContrarian