I want to do a new construction project with steam heat…more than anything
I’m not old enough to have piped a house ground up, radiators, soup to nuts. In fact I’m not old. I’m also not young. I’m 40. I’ve altered piping, moved radiators, I’ve made mistakes, and made improvements. I’ve fixed many noisy houses with a quick turn of a screwdriver on that ever misunderstood pressure device, and a hanger or two. Piped a few dozen boilers, just doing what the picture shows in the manual. Never done a whole house and someday I will. Even if it has to be a house I build for myself.
Anyways. For education…have you? Did your dad? Did your grandfather?? If so..were they picky about radiators? Did they keep baking soda and vinegar in the truck because they were sticklers about water quality?
“Grandad wouldn’t install anything but a thatcher!”
“Grandad, was a Dunham vapor man through and through”
I wanna hear the lore
THINK
Comments
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I'm older than you but not too old. I've piped steam heat in many home extensions, some quite extensive. I'm sure virtually all of the good fitters who frequent this site have done many of these too. Also replaced steam systems in entire houses, added them to attics, basements, etc. The vast majority of residential work is one pipe steam. It was and is the easiest and cheapest way to pipe steam.
Little additions can be challenging. You have to look at a job for a long time, calculate which mains can handle the added load and how to pipe them to attain the proper pitch, balance and capacity. Easier said than done sometimes with all the structural obstructions.
As engineers, we've specified many new and renovated steam systems, mostly medium sized residential, commercial and military/industrial. Our jobs work nicely.
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Its a very long story, Andy, but yes! In short: Purchased an 1899 Country Victorian Farmhouse in 2000. It had a Jack-legged One-Pipe Counterflow Steam system with ordinary cast iron rads, except one scrolled one.
Gutted the home down to the studs. Dug out the basement 2 feet deeper. Installed a One-Pipe Steam Vapor system from scratch with one, Two-Pipe radiator with loop seal (no trap). 2 1/2" Mains. I had been collecting a few ornate radiators from jobs, and junkyard. The rest I picked up from Fran Fahey of A 1 Radiators in Massachusetts (Long Closed) of This Old House Fame.
I went up there with around 4 Large (4k) in cash 💸 thinking I'd have my pick of the litter. I was lucky to leave with 3 Beauties! I took them all to the sandblasters and painted them myself...came out gorgeous.
I did a Double-Drop-Dead-Gorgeous Steam header on a Burnham Independence Gas Boiler which was featured in the Burnham Boiler Calendar around 2002 or so.
I installed an ancient Dole Radiator Co. Pressure guage that still works perfectly...Vaporstat...Puppy runs on 12 ounces.
It was a great experience and the biggest lesson/beating/tuition bill I got was on some unique systems, pickup factors DO matter and you cant play it too close in boiler sizing....and doing one inch thick fiberglass installation on everything will NOT get you out of trouble.
Back then, Noel Murdough (RIP) a regular at The Wall back then and a Steam Savant used to come out on the weekends and drink beer 🍻 and root me on. Dan, Noel and Steamhead were my technical advisors and cheerleaders. Steamhead drove all the way up from Maryland with a grand old Flue radiator for the home in his trunk .
I'd go for it. Once you install one from scratch you will have experience that is rare and invaluable. Here to support you. Mad Dog
es
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Can't forget the modern comforts and Life Safety features: Radiant in basement slab, all bathrooms and mud room, Central AC, Fire Sprinkler System for all 4 levels of home, piped in 2" Main of L Copper with Silver-brazed Joints. Mad Dog
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This. And I miss Noel too.
I did one small house one-pipe project, with help, some 30 years ago. Might still have the article about that, have to look. Since then, several addition projects. Never did get around to doing a Tudor system, which has the fewest moving parts of any steam system - see:
All Steamed Up, Inc.
Towson, MD, USA
Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
Oil & Gas Burner Service
Consulting
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Funny Matt mentions the pick-up factor.
All these years I thought I was the only one who got burned by the quest for efficiency.
Live and learn they say.
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You'll never REALLY learn anything unless you push the extremes. Mad Dog
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Wow. Thank you Matt, that’s exactly what I was asking. And thank you Ed. What a cool story. I’m unfamiliar with Fran and Noel, but if you have any posts or information on them that resonate with you or want to share, please do! I don’t know why I find steam heating so intriguing but something about it just speaks to me. The people in my local community consider them fussy old systems and try to find reasons to remove them rather than repair them. Its heresy. They condemn the system rather than their misunderstanding of the operation. I’m honored to have the ability and opportunity to seek council with men like you on the topic.
Why don’t we install it today? The owner of the historic home in Ithaca and I spoke a good 20 minutes in and around the topic. He loves it as we do but from a homeowners viewpoint. I’ve pondered and I believe there are a lot of correct answers. I believe it’s socioeconomics. Just as there is more money in the treatment of cancer as opposed to the cure. What I mean is that once it’s in, it’s extremely resilient. Doesn’t do much for the wholesalers who want to sell pumps, valves, tanks, copper, etc etc etc… The Ithaca house has a caretaker who has been there for 40 years and no one has ever done any real maintenance during his tenure. Once a year they had someone come by and say “it’s good.” That’s about it, and behold the damn thing still heats the house. Albeit at a fraction of its potential. Thanks again Let me know your thoughts. 🍺THINK
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and thank you Frank. I’ve never heard of a Tudor system. Or Frederic Tudor for that matter. I have much to learn
THINK
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I recall a thread where a modern steam system was installed using small copper tubing; maybe @Steamhead project?
Edit: Found it on @gerry gill site
and here:0 -
That is wild! Now im gonna be down a rabbit hole researching this insane mini tube system.
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we have circulators and automatic burners now. steam was used because it worked with 19th century technology. there are more economical ways to get the same result now.
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But with unreliable electric service (all these data centers hogging the grid) and wacky weather, the possibility of a freeze-up increases. Steam can survive this- hot-water, maybe not so much.
@AndythePlumber and @4GenPlumber , go for it!
All Steamed Up, Inc.
Towson, MD, USA
Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
Oil & Gas Burner Service
Consulting1 -
millivolt steam boilers haven't been made in decades so even with a steam boiler you will need a backup power source of some sort. the circulator in a hot water system doesn't use much power. a small solar battery system could keep either running. the blower in a forced air system would take quite a bit more power. if you don't want to deal with a secondary power source then you could put glycol in a hydronic system to keep it from freezing.
if you want to build one as a hobby you can but it isn't practical do do a complete new residential steam installation as the heating system for a house. even where we have district steam they switched to using a hx and hydronic heat by about the early 60's.
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@mattmia2 are they more economical? Consider.
If you’ve got a steam heating system with an atmospheric burner combusting at ~80% fuel efficiency and the piping connected to it is in good working order. Proper maintenance performed. After that baseline is established. I would expect years of trouble free operation. Even decades of neglect and it will still provide the minimum requirements for the occupants.
***I am not knocking newer hydronic heating systems. I’m a skilled practitioner and operator of modern systems. I deeply understand and appreciate them. I’ve built these systems for single family homes, homes that you COULD put several families in, apartment complexes, student housing complexes, automated car washes and etc…
I’m just asking, what happened to our poor ol buddy steam. It moves on its own. It’s safe, more than reliable, operates at (hopefully) low pressure and as such doesn’t suffer emergency pipe bursts. Almost nothing for controls. If we have an after hours call on a steam boiler it’s almost always electrical or neglect.
What I mean is you can produce a lot of steam through the years at whatever your fuel supplier is charging for the one service call your local hvac sales “company” is bending you over for, to replace an expansion tank. An expansion tank that they installed 2 years ago mind you, and never adjusted the pre charge in. And god only knows what they charged for the first tank. Don’t get me started on what they charge to clean a flame rod. If you consider steam a commodity or a resource, I do, consolidated Edison sure does. Once manufactured, it does what it does on its own….lmk your thoughts and cheers
THINK
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hot water works fairly well if you are close most of the time, even poorly designed hot water will usually somewhat work. steam that isn't installed right will work poorly. steam systems corrode a lot more than hot water systems. you can usually add chemicals to help with that and maintenance also helps with that but a leak free hydronic system corrodes very little. hot water is inherently a bit more efficient because the delta across the heat exchanger is around 30-50 f degrees more in a conventional hot water system. it can be quit a bit more with a mod con and a system designed for low water temps.
maintaining or extending an existing steam system makes sense. installing a new system does not make sense unless it is as a hobby or for historic preservation.
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I dream about doing one. Mine would be a two pipe air vent but every return would drop into a wet return. No traps just a water seal. Rad vents in the basement on the rad returns above the boiler water level.
rads sized for the actual heat loss. Boiler sized for the radiation with minimal PU factor.
But alas at 72 aint happening.
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I first watched this done by Ed Britton of Hudson, NY. I opened my book, The Lost Art of Steam Heating, with the story. I loved watching it happen, and was so happy to share it.
Mad Dog’s house took it to another level. It truly is a college all its own. When you have it in your head, you own it.
Thanks to all of you, and yes, Noel.
Retired and loving it.2 -
A well-designed steam system in a well insulated and laid out building is close enough in fuel costs to a similar home with hot water baseboard, radiators or connectors. I've lived in homes with both systems. If you wanna do it....Do it. There's more to life than counting every penny. Mad Dog
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Ed. We have many original steam systems just as you like em operating in NYC as we speak. Nice and simple. That is why I did a Loop Seal for the one ancient two pipe radiator I have....Traps confuse the H—- outta guys...especially after I pass....Simplicity. Mad Dog
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I suppose gravity hot water system could still be built, requiring no electricity.
No need to drive the transfer medium, water, through another phase change to enjoy radiators and their radiant warmth.
In a typical new well insulated residential home, under 2000 sq ft, (40,000 btu/hr design) Never having lived with steam heat, is it more comfortable, efficient, than a cast radiator at 180 degrees? Or lower?
Bob "hot rod" Rohr
trainer for Caleffi NA
Living the hydronic dream1 -
Our resident guru of DHW btus has a gravity driven radiant wall heating system, runs on solar thermal temperature water.
I imagine it is an incredibly cozy, comfortable home with invisible heat emitters :)
If efficiency is part of the goal, heating the home with water under 120°F has some benefits
Bob "hot rod" Rohr
trainer for Caleffi NA
Living the hydronic dream2 -
I've extended many systems with predictable results. Not much of a challenge there. But the closest I've come to installing a new system was in an old warehouse-turned-residential building in TriBeCa where we took the basement and ground floor duplex residence (12,000 sq ft) off the building's 2-pipe vapor system and completely repiped it independently as a parallel zone to the single existing boiler. TRVs rather than one big zone valve allowed the split systems to play together nicely and my client's newly partitioned rooms never overheated again. It was massive and all the interior framing made it very difficult to photograph but it was a great learning experience for my whole shop.
Contact John "JohnNY" Cataneo, NYC Master Plumber, Lic 1784
Consulting & Troubleshooting
Heating in NYC or NJ.
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Hi, To follow up on @hot_rod 's post, the house maintains 70 with 80 degree water. I burn about 1/4 cord of wood for supplimental heat per year.
Yours, Larry
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Comfort is getting the right amount of heat to the right place. Not too much, not too little. The reason pumped hot water displaced both steam and gravity hot water is that it does a better job of delivering small amounts of heat. It's more responsive.
Houses built to the latest codes are very tight and well-insulated. They're most comfortable with heat that can be delivered in small increments.
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Zonig is a nice featue also.
And not to forget IAQ indoor air quality has to be addresses in today's modern, tight, well insulated homes.
Air exchange, filtration, humidity control are all apart of the comfort formula.
Bob "hot rod" Rohr
trainer for Caleffi NA
Living the hydronic dream0
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