At last! Or... not quite!

mattmia2 · February 16

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1888251#Comment_1888251

on a 2 pipe system. not so much on a one pipe system. there are a few rules in the near boiler piping instructions that are very important for 2 pipe systems but probably make little difference in 1 pipe gravity return systems. the same diagram is given for both. the only difference in pressure between supply in return in a 1 pipe system is the resistance to flow of steam in the pipe. in a 2 pipe system the 2 are not directly connected and significant pressure differences can exist.

ChrisJ · February 16

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1888251#Comment_1888251

This is one of the reasons people are scared of steam.

I've held all of my steam rises and often mains when balancing my system. It's a 212f pipe not a 500f oven or soldering iron.

You're also not reaching into burning hot liquid.

Captain Who · February 16

OK. I am saying it isn't a good way to measure the temperature of something in any sort of quantitative scientific way but anyone is free to conduct the experiment as they see fit. I will tape a thermocouple and video the process with my sight glass and DVOM/thermocouple both in the frame. If you can hold your hand on a steam pipe when steam hits it for more than a second, then I tip my hat to you.

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1888286#Comment_1888286

in the frame.

ChrisJ · February 16

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1888289#Comment_1888289

It's a home heating steam boiler not a fusion reactor. None of this is that complicated.

neilc · February 16

maybe "hold" is too incessant a word,

tap touch, tappy tappy tap touch,

not hot yet , , , oooh that's getting hot , , , , dang that's hot!, , ,

ethicalpaul · February 16

I am pretty sure I can hold the equalizer since there’s no steam in it 🙂

EBEBRATT-Ed · February 17

Steam can only get down to the HL if:

Its installed too high

Or the boiler runs at low water all the time.

The HL is supposed to be submerged 2-4" below the normal water line

If steam and water co exist the steam is above the water and the water is on the bottom. Like a tank of refrigerant liquid on the bottom vapor on top.

The HL problem is it is equalized the return water trying to get in the boiler and the steam pushing back against it. This is where the problem can arise. The condensate can cool the steam causing vacuum if there is a lot of steam and water contact area…….like a long HL nipple. That is why it should be a close nip, street ell or a Y fitting to minimize hammer.

I don't believe air stays in any steam system. Even in buildings with bad or no air vents you usually eventually get some steam heat. I don't think air gets trapped in an equalizer either.

The boiler starts from a cold start. Condensate starts dripping down the equalizer to the boiler water line and the air rises to the top and goes out through the main.

markmarlatt · February 19

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1887456#Comment_1887456

Yes sir it will. Currently the equalizer ties back to the boiler on the left side and all the returns tie (incorrectly) into boiler on the right port. The rework will have the returns all joined below water line, tied into the equalizer at proper height to create the Hartford Loop and the right port of the boiler will be made to have a drain valve only.

Tech and I have studied all the replies on this thread along with HB Smith (manufacturer of my boiler) diagrams to get a plan drawn up and agreed to for next visit. Tech estimates 8-10 hours of labor so I want to ensure all variables are accounted for before the next visit as it will be a pricey one.

ethicalpaul · February 19

Make sure he has a plan to skim your boiler some time after this new pipe work. Pre-washing the new pipes with detergent wouldn’t hurt either.

That main sure travels around, as seen on your video on your other thread!

4GenPlumber · February 19

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1887513#Comment_1887513

This lay out is fine, although it set us off on a different tangent, if it is easier for the tech and saves you some money. No need to relocate the Hartford and the equalizer, just lower the tees so all the drips connect below the water line and tie back to wet return, not the boiler.

4GenPlumber · February 19

Nevermind, just went back again to find original pics of equalizer and lack of Hartford entirely. The pipe work shouldnt take 8-10 hrs though, unless he is cutting and threading each nip.

1.Each drip should be cut at the change in direction and changed to a union.

2. Extend all lines to same elevation below the water line and tie together. 2" 90-2×11/2 tee-2" tee. (Front to back)

3. Cut equalizer above where HL tee should be, Mega-press coupling in line with half bald nip to HL tee at appropriate height (which you already have determined) HL tee should be full 2 inch just so you can reuse some of the previously purchased nips and fittings. Bull end of tee should face to the right with street 90 facing down. (If your contractor doesnt have Mega press machine or jaws, they can usually be rented from a supply house and save lots of time)

4. Extend that to the same elevation of the drips already extended with a union on the vertical. Tie all 4 vertical drops together with at least one boiler drain thats accessible.

5. Connect hatford tee back to return port on right side of boiler, again with a boiler drain accessible.

6.Cut nip from tee on left side of boiler with all those bushings for the feed, add another bushing for boiler drain. Done.

Sorry I cant just put up a Pic, im technologically impaired.

markmarlatt · February 19

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1888667#Comment_1888667

And this is why I am a computer tech and not a plumber :). Not sure if tech has a mega press, he does cut and thread black iron when needed with a tripod setup. Watching a YouTube on black iron is seems pretty involved to cut and thread pipe and I’d wager is an art form, one best left to those who’ve put in the time to learn.

It took a few weeks to find a contractor who worked with black iron and would touch this system. Very little residential steam here in eastern Wyoming.

4GenPlumber · February 19

Material price would be high, but it could be done in Copper as well. I know few people like copper above the water line, but better to have to piping right in the wrong material than wrong in the right material.

mattmia2 · February 19

copper is less than megapress fittings…

mattmia2 · February 19

cutting and threading pipe isn't hard if you have the machine. doing it by hand also is hard per se but is a lot of work.

ChrisJ · February 19

In my opinion copper isn't terrible as long as it's in fairly short lengths and the design doesn't tend to pry it self apart. I.E. a single header with singer riser would likely be ok, but a drop header with dual risers is going to be a bad bad idea. Besides trying to bust it self apart, it's going to also put pressure on the boiler as well.

That's assuming who ever does the soldering can do decent joints in 2"-3" material.

mattmia2 · February 19

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1888723#Comment_1888723

copper above the water line is bad because of its much greater conductivity than iron, it will condense a lot more steam than black iron will.(besides the thermal expansion and joints that don't flex part)