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Loud hissing from nearly all radiators during this cold spell

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13

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  • dabrakeman
    dabrakeman Member Posts: 906

    My pressuretrol originally with the same settings you are at (0.5 main, 1 diff) let my pressure rise to just over 3psi. I was able to tweak it to shutoff at 1.5psi but you would need the new gage to attempt this adjustment. Some pressuetrols simply may not adjust down far enough before not letting the the boiler cut back in.

    Day_Tripper
  • Day_Tripper
    Day_Tripper Member Posts: 42
    edited January 24

    Thanks @Captain Who all good. A few people pointed out the option of adding a vent at the end cap of the abandoned blue line run but it's not an option. The cap was where a radiator in our dining room used to be, as in, they completely removed an entire heat source from half the house (the morons removed a radiator from the dining room and kitchen during reno) Perhaps one of the most insane things I've ever seen, so now half of the 1st floor is without a heat source…. INSANE. So I'm keeping it open to add a radiator back to the dining room at some point. No big deal, what's a few thousand dollars here and there?

    Concerning the pitch of the piping, I did as much as I had access to (asbestos, bulkheads, walls, etc) and just said it is what it is. I strapped a few places I could and called it a day. I think I sill have some wrap insulation on hand, and if it's the right diameter I'll add it to my return pipe.

  • Captain Who
    Captain Who Member Posts: 584
    edited January 24

    @Day_Tripper You and I could be in the same boat as far as maybe having Hartford Loop problems where it is too high. See Hartford Loop thread for my mickey mouse setup. I would prioritize checking and fixing that. I am relatively OK keeping my water level about 1 in. higher than NWL but only when water is pristine clean and relatively low in TSS particulates. Your setup with the shared main and returns with Tees I'm sure makes your system more unpredictable as far as balancing steam and return of condensate. When you have a threaded Tee I don't know how it will be possible to have downward pitch leaving both legs unless you have pipes that were purposely (or happy accident) threaded crooked and you index them properly for pitch. Your Blue line may be substantially counter-flow as a result.

    Day_Tripper
  • Day_Tripper
    Day_Tripper Member Posts: 42

    It's not really a tee, where the main diverges to both lines.

    IMG_3383.jpeg
    Captain Who
  • Goodhap
    Goodhap Member Posts: 29

    What can I do about this radiator that is leaking water from the bottom (rusted through) since keeping the intake closed is just allowing it to fill with water that doesn't then run back out? It's leaking quite a bit. I know it needs to be replaced, but that will probalby take a while to get done.

  • Day_Tripper
    Day_Tripper Member Posts: 42

    @Goodhap Can you send a picture of the radiator in question? It might help to see where the leak is coming from. It seems like the inlet valve needs replacing or repacking as others have stated. This is why it still lets steam in even if it is closed. I would recommend you use https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/ to have someone help you. This isn't something you should take on during the winter.

  • Captain Who
    Captain Who Member Posts: 584

    When I advised you to remove vent and plug it I didn't realize that this radiator had a hole in the bottom. You mentioned that the water was coming out of the vent so I focused on that.

    Fixing it would be as much work as replacing the supply shutoff valve because you would have to remove the radiator and the valve and cap the pipe. You will need a new radiator and a new valve. Can you put a large tray underneath the entire radiator? You'd have to disconnect the radiator, put the tray underneath and reconnect it. Also a PIA. I don't know if it is feasible to repair a radiator with high heat JB Weld epoxy putty or Xpando or the like, or if you did, how long it might last.

    Day_Tripper
  • Goodhap
    Goodhap Member Posts: 29

    It's leaking out of the bottom, not just at the intake and outtake valves. Hard to get a picture though.

    If we just replace the intake valve so we can close it off for now, will we have to do so again when we get a new radiator?

  • Day_Tripper
    Day_Tripper Member Posts: 42

    @Goodhap I second @Captain Who on using the J-B Weld WaterEpoxy where there is any water leaking. Just unload the entire stick anywhere you see some water dripping. You will have to replace the inlet valve at some point at a minimum. If you want to abandon the radiator you can just have a plumber cap the run. The J-B Weld will stop the water leaking temporarily. I've used it on my pressure vacuum breaker for my lawn irrigation system that had a leak. I just mixed it up and mashed a ton in the crack and it works fine now. I'd try to do this today.

  • Captain Who
    Captain Who Member Posts: 584
    edited January 24

    When you get a new radiator, assuming it has the same thread size, or that you have the right reducer bushing too if needed, you will be able to just loosen the nut, remove leaking one, and replace with new one. Or you could just remove both radiator and valve and cap the pipe temporarily and be certain of no leaks, even if the new valve doesn't close off 100%.

  • Captain Who
    Captain Who Member Posts: 584
    edited January 24

    I've never used this stuff but I bookmarked it a while ago:

    Iron Paste

     withstands temperatures up to 400° F and also withstands pressure up to 60 lbs. on water, oil, steam or gas lines.

    https://www.blackswanmfg.com/Category-04/Iron-Paste.HTML

  • Day_Tripper
    Day_Tripper Member Posts: 42
    edited January 25

    Any updates @Goodhap?

  • Goodhap
    Goodhap Member Posts: 29
    edited January 25

    Yes, I had a new guy come over (recommended here and on town FB group from someone who has single-pipe steam). He seems to know what he is doing, has all of the old manuals from the 1930s and everything, spent a lot of time talking through things. Immediate concern is getting the leaks stopped, so he recommended replacing the intakes on the four radiators that are leaking there (he tried tightening with a pipe wrench, but they did not budge). He did calculations for the BTU requirements for the room with the busted radiator, and he says it's fine to just remove it since the room only needs one radiator. So we're going to do that and just cap it. Reasonable fee to do that work, using castrad intakes.

    For the loud hissing (video here for you enjoyment!) he says he needs to do a complete system check to make sure the boiler is sized right, measuring all radiators, etc. My only hesitancy there is that I want to know what possible options will come out of it. We can't replace the boiler, so I'm not sure the full system check will help. It seems to me like focus should be on the pigtail and making sure there is adequate venting on the returns in the basement.

    I should note that the leaking is pretty bad at one of the intakes. Like it's soaking through a towell a day, so I want to get it replaced ASAP.

    Also should note that this morning, when the below video was taken, the pressure gauge read 2.5 PSI, which I know is high.

    What do you all think?

    Bonus video of hissing — EDIT, nevermind, I can't post videos here apparently. The boiler guy said "yeah, that's really loud" when I shared it with him.

    Day_Tripper
  • Day_Tripper
    Day_Tripper Member Posts: 42

    @Goodhap I'm glad to hear you have a plan going forward. Just so we're on the same page, you have 4 inlet valve leaks and 1 radiator leak. Is this correct?

    Concerning wanting to omit the calculation, I personally wouldn't spend the money to have someone do those calculations because I decided to do all of that on my own after buying a copy of The Lost Art of Steam Heating. I understand your hesitancy because as you said, you're not going to buy a new boiler. It might give you some visibility on your total load and venting. At a minimum have the guy replace all the inlet valve immediately and cap off and abandon the busted leaky radiator.

  • mhjaq8603
    mhjaq8603 Member Posts: 27

    I just had the same issue. Turns out my pigtail was clogged. I took it off and cleaned it and my system immediately went to near silence. Try removing and cleaning out the pigtail. It took me about 30 minutes to do.

    Captain WhoDay_Tripper
  • Goodhap
    Goodhap Member Posts: 29

    Thank you, I will try that!

    For whatever reason, the system has been quiter the last few days. All I did was empty out some water, not a lot. Still some hissing, but nothing like the craziness from before. Intake valves are still leaking though, so the guy is coming to replace them this week.

  • dabrakeman
    dabrakeman Member Posts: 906

    Definitely do your sizing calculations just to know what you are working with and how to tailor expectations. Two cups of coffee in the morning and a cheat sheet like the one attached and you can do it yourself, no need to pay anyone. Just total up all the sqft calculations for each radiator and compare it to the rated sqft on the boiler. Don't worry about btu's.

    Day_Tripper
  • Day_Tripper
    Day_Tripper Member Posts: 42

    I took a ~ 30 min video this morning of a heating cycle. Video here: https://youtu.be/JAk7mmRwbBo

    Some notes:

    1. One of my main vents is severely leaking during a heating cycle at about 0.25 PSI (19 min mark)
    2. I am finally seeing some pressure from my low pressure gauge and I think my cut in and cut out are maybe working?
    3. Why are my vents hissing at such a low PSI?
    4. What is the cause of the spitting for my Gorton #1 vent? If I replace it will it just break again?

    @Goodhap @Captain Who @dabrakeman @ethicalpaul

  • ethicalpaul
    ethicalpaul Member Posts: 8,405
    edited January 28

    Great video. I did jump advance through parts of it for time, but here is what I see:

    • overall operation is fine, I see no sign of carryover/surging (as evidenced by your relatively steady waterline
    • Your Gorton #1 is definitely busted. Replace it. I like Maid O Mist because they are cheaper and basically the same, but they both fail (as evidenced by your video). Interestingly, people here crap on MoM all the time because their seams aren't soldered like Gorton is, and here is a soldered Gorton that doesn't even look old clearly split. I shop at supplyhouse.com
    • Your Gorton #2 seems to also be leaking at .5psi and it should probably be replaced. You could take it down and try to shake it or smack it in hopes of dislodging something inside that is preventing it closing but I have not had success with this.
    • These vents leaking is not causing you any trouble upstairs. But it causes the loss of water from your system and that is something you should address to prevent excess corrosion of your boiler.

    PS: Note that everything leaks more with higher pressure. You might consider avoiding thermostat setbacks so that your pressure is kept to a minimum (I assume your system sees lower pressure during normal operation and only goes higher when you bump up the thermostat as you did for this video)

    For comparison, I have a low pressure switch tied to a timer relay that interrupts all my calls for heat when my pressure gets to about 1/4 psi. This makes it take a long time to recover from a temperature setback of course, but the result is very low pressure and wasted fuel (I consider fuel that goes into pressurizing a steam system to be wasted, even though it somewhat isn't)

    If my system were running at 2psi I'd probably have leaks all over the place LOL

    To answer your notes above:

    3. Your #1 vent for sure is hissing because steam is escaping through that leak in the seam
    4. There are two types of steam vent: Those that have failed, and those that haven't failed yet

    NJ Steam Homeowner.
    Free NJ and remote steam advice: https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/new-jersey-steam-help/
    See my sight glass boiler videos: https://bit.ly/3sZW1el

  • Day_Tripper
    Day_Tripper Member Posts: 42

    Thanks @ethicalpaul. I have been holding my thermostat at 71 for about 5 days since I jumped in this thread and it appears to have helped a bit. I replaced a bunch of MoM and my main vents with Gorton (from supplyhouse) not even 6 months ago. This is completely f*cked that they have failed already. Just unbelievably f*cked. There is no chance I replace my #2 because my plumber who cut the pipe out in my laundry room had to fight to get that vent in because of the clearance. I'll buy a new main vent today to replace my #1.

    Do you recommend I get a MoM #1 to replace my Gorton #1?

    Do you have more info on your low pressure scheme to keep everything at 1/4 PSI? If I keep my thermostat at 71 do I gain anything from a low pressure switch circuit? Thanks again!

  • ethicalpaul
    ethicalpaul Member Posts: 8,405

    if you keep your temp at 71 how high does your pressure get during the call for heat?

    MoM and Gorton both fail. They all fail. You might see if supply house will take that split one back at least

    NJ Steam Homeowner.
    Free NJ and remote steam advice: https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/new-jersey-steam-help/
    See my sight glass boiler videos: https://bit.ly/3sZW1el

  • Day_Tripper
    Day_Tripper Member Posts: 42

    @ethicalpaul I'm not sure. I'd have to sit down with my boiler for a while to catch a call for heat cycle.

    Concerning the vents, I understand that nothing is perfect, but Gorton/Supply House f'd me. There is no way $200 worth of venting should fail less than 6 months into their first heating season.

    On a side note you might find interesting; I have an air handler in my attic and an air return in the hallway on my 2nd floor. I've been trying out turning my air handler to 'On' and picking up warmer 2nd floor air and pushing it through my SpacePak small duct system. I don't have any data to see if this helps but I have to assume if picking up 10+ warmer air from my 2nd floor and forcing it down to my 1st floor should help compensate for my lost radiators. Kind of like a forced air boiler system: half as efficient as either heating system at 2x the energy usage lol.

  • ethicalpaul
    ethicalpaul Member Posts: 8,405

    if it works, it works!

    Call supplyhouse and see what they say but maybe come at them a bit lighter than above lol they are good people

    You may find on a normal call for heat that you see almost no pressure

    NJ Steam Homeowner.
    Free NJ and remote steam advice: https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/new-jersey-steam-help/
    See my sight glass boiler videos: https://bit.ly/3sZW1el

  • Day_Tripper
    Day_Tripper Member Posts: 42

    @ethicalpaul SupplyHouse is sending me a replacement Gorton #1.

    I just watched a full cycle (we have the house on hold at 72 now) and saw it run for 20 mins showing no pressure before an intermittent low water test paused the cycle, then it kicked back on and ran for maybe 5-10 mins at no pressure showing on the gauge and then the set point was satisfied and the boiler shut off.

  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 17,162

    Why did his vent(s) fail in only 6 months?

    My Gorton's are all going on 13 years now and I haven't had one fail out of 16. That can't just be luck?

    Single pipe 392sqft system with an EG-40 rated for 325sqft and it's silent and balanced at all times.

    Day_Tripper
  • Captain Who
    Captain Who Member Posts: 584
    edited January 28

    I watched the end of your video. That pressuretrol calibration isn't awful. It cut-out at 1.8 and cut-in at 0.8. So differential is accurate at least. When you don't have leaking vents the time it takes to go from 1.5 to 1.8 will be a few seconds and it will not be so quick to go from 1.8 to 0.8.

    Your Gorton #2 is hissing under pressure so that will have to maybe be cleaned with vinegar and if that doesn't fix it you'll have to replace. 3 Gorton #1 are pretty close to one Gorton #2. You could do an antler of 3 Gorton #1. If one goes bad it isn't such a huge $$$ hit.

    PS: Nice thread takeover 😃

    Day_Tripper
  • Day_Tripper
    Day_Tripper Member Posts: 42

    @ChrisJ your guess is as good as mine

    @Captain Who I'll keep that in mind. I'm just going to keep the #2 in place and pray for the best because it was a nightmare to get that #2 in and I don't want to take ir out during the heating season. Hah I know I felt bad about the take over but I do hope my situation can help @Goodhap since we both have similar problems.

  • ethicalpaul
    ethicalpaul Member Posts: 8,405

    NJ Steam Homeowner.
    Free NJ and remote steam advice: https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/new-jersey-steam-help/
    See my sight glass boiler videos: https://bit.ly/3sZW1el

    Day_Tripper
  • ethicalpaul
    ethicalpaul Member Posts: 8,405

    I think it can be luck. I and many others had Gorton #1's arrive DOA

    NJ Steam Homeowner.
    Free NJ and remote steam advice: https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/new-jersey-steam-help/
    See my sight glass boiler videos: https://bit.ly/3sZW1el

  • ethicalpaul
    ethicalpaul Member Posts: 8,405

    Oh and I forgot why I asked you that. So with almost no pressure during a normal call for heat, you don't need to set up some kind of time delay system.

    I set it up for mine because I didn't want to have any pressure buildup during a recovery from a thermometer setback.

    NJ Steam Homeowner.
    Free NJ and remote steam advice: https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/new-jersey-steam-help/
    See my sight glass boiler videos: https://bit.ly/3sZW1el

    Day_Tripper
  • Captain Who
    Captain Who Member Posts: 584
    edited January 28

    Just unscrew that street elbow maybe 45 deg, then put one holdback wrench on the street elbow and the other wrench (use a large adjustable) on the Gorton and unscrew it. Then reverse the procedure with the new one, or design an antler tree for 3 #1's.

    Day_Tripper
  • Goodhap
    Goodhap Member Posts: 29

    Thanks for sharing this. Very similar to our situation, though ours does get to higher PSI. And our vents in the basement don't hiss or leak at all. Instead, the intake valves on the rads hiss and leak, and the air vents hiss like crazy (this morning was wild again).

    (PS, I am impressed with the cleanliness of your boiler water)

    Day_Tripper
  • Goodhap
    Goodhap Member Posts: 29

    Taking back the thread, haha!

    Is the pressuretol supposed to shut off the boiler when the PSI exceeds what the pressuretol is set to? If so, ours is definitely not working, as the pressurtol is set at like .5 and our PSI frequently gets up to 2-2.5.

  • Goodhap
    Goodhap Member Posts: 29

    I'll also note that we've been keeping our system consistently at 68, and we still get intermittent very loud hissing. This morning was especially bad, woke us up and didn't stop for like an hour. Pretty much the entire night, I could hear low level hissing from the bathroom radiator.

  • Day_Tripper
    Day_Tripper Member Posts: 42

    @Goodhap my water is so clean because I'm using make up water way way way too often. With my leaky vent, a lot of water is lost. I do flush the boiler down a few times during the season.

    Concerning the pressuretrol, yes. You have a cut in and a differential. You can see in my earlier post I took the front cover off my pressuretrol (which is the same as yours) and you can see my cut in on left is all the way down (via the screw on the top left) and differential wheel is at 1. So in practice the boiler should cut in at 0.5PSI and cut out at 1.5PSI (0.5 + 1 diff). If you cleaned out your pigtail and your differential is set correctly, your system should only operate under 1.5PSI. You can see in my video that my pressuretrol is a bit out of calibration because it cuts in a 0.8 and out at 1.8 (0.8 + 1 diff).

    Concerning the continued hissing, I'd defer to some of the vets on why this continues. They might be old and clogged at the air hole.

  • Goodhap
    Goodhap Member Posts: 29

    Mine refills a lot lately too, especially lately given that an entire rad is basically pouring water out an soaking through a towell every night, but my water is still muddy!

    Day_Tripper
  • Day_Tripper
    Day_Tripper Member Posts: 42

    @Goodhap unless you completely blow down your system there is still a fair amount of mud at the bottom of your boiler and in the mud leg of the wet return (if you have that type of system). If your system is down while the plumber replaces the inlet valves you could try and flush your boiler. It's not too complicated.

    Once you get your inlet valves replaced and your leaky radiator closed off your system should be good.

  • ethicalpaul
    ethicalpaul Member Posts: 8,405

    the more water you add, the more brown is created in your water, including after flushing

    NJ Steam Homeowner.
    Free NJ and remote steam advice: https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/new-jersey-steam-help/
    See my sight glass boiler videos: https://bit.ly/3sZW1el

    Intplm.
  • BobC
    BobC Member Posts: 5,552

    Having multiple vents fail at the 6 month mark tells me something is very wrong, call supply house and see what they can do. If they can't help a call to Gorton is in order.

    My system runs at 12oz but back when it was at 2PSI the vents made only a very light hissing noise.

    Hissing vents makes me think your pressure mat be higher than you think. Maybe the pigtail is partially clogged? Your pressure gauge might be lying, the 30# gauge is pretty useless - think about adding a 0-3 gauge so you can see what is really going on. Pressure sb kept under 2PSI.

    Bob

    Smith G8-3 with EZ Gas @ 90,000 BTU, Single pipe steam
    Vaporstat with a 12oz cut-out and 4oz cut-in
    3PSI gauge
  • Goodhap
    Goodhap Member Posts: 29

    How can I get clean water again then? It seems like an impossible battle!