I found the limit for undersizing steam supply piping on my boiler

Great demonstration, thanks !!!

Think how bad that would be with an incorrect steam supply piping with a boiler larger than yours.

That water expanded into steam wants to get out of the boiler and takes water with it and all way under 1 PSIG.

When you heated your house for one month with the 1-1/4" restricted supply what happened to your gas usage per degree day compared to the normal overbuilt double 2" Drop Header? And then what happened to the gas bill when you added rust particulates to the water at over 50ppm?

Just joshin. I know you didn't do those experiments. 😀 Keep on having fun.

OK then take the challenge 😃 If the steam is just as dry you shouldn't see any loss of efficiency. It is possible that a drop header might even make up for it.

Knowing him if someone donated one he'd hook it up.

"But remember I did used to have a ridiculously poorly piped Utica with a single supply pipe and when I got the water decent, it didn't carry over anymore."

Yeah. My situation exactly. For some reason I don't understand, you deny what I am seeing in my own system the past 20 years or so, that I need to drain and flush (you told me I don't have to do this) and treat to prevent wet steam progressing to severe carry over. Not trying to divert the thread, just have to say this.

"The small supply pipe slows down the steam exiting the steam chest so there's not really any "sucking" behavior that happens."

The velocity actually increases, so it doesn't slow it down at all. The restriction, ie. increased friction to flow, caused the path of least resistance to become the equalizer though, due to the increased boiler pressure. I know you said that in the video but I just wanted to clarify.

"Did you see how high I had the water line on my Peerless in these videos? It was to the very top of the gauge glass which is just a couple inches below the top of the section where the supply tappings are."

Yeah and try raising your Hartford Loop up to where it is installed 3 in. too high and then tip your boiler forward towards the supply tappings so that the waterline is 1/2 in. higher than at the sight glass. Then you have a situation like mine. I have to keep my waterline at rest almost that high in the sight glass so that when a normal amount of water occupies the system as steam, the waterline in the boiler doesn't expose the Close Nipple of the Hartford causing boiler pressure to interfere with condensate return, making any carry over situation escalate.

"After what I just put this boiler through I honestly don't think there is a carryover situation that isn't the fault of the water"

Try removing the drop style header and the second takeoff and put in an undersized header pitched the wrong way away from the equalizer like I have in my mickey mouse install. The water quality only makes things that much worse.

Your experiments are cool but they are a sample size of 1, with your specific install, and you aren't doing anything quantitatively scientific to see how much more wet the steam may be when it reaches your radiators. If you prefer, swap out "more wet steam" with decreased dryness fraction.

You aren't doing it with a poor header install and high TSS of 50 ppm or greater.

Yeah man take a breath. Sometimes it's better to think a while before answering everything.

This kind of reminded me of Adam Savage on Mythbusters when he jokingly stated "I reject your reality and substitute my own" 🤣 I kind of miss that show.

PS - Your recall needs a little tuning up. When you said that I had probably introduced oil into my system from the steam main replacement I corrected you by saying that since I did the work myself I was able to clean all the pipes and fittings thoroughly before installation and I didn't have any problems whatsoever that I was aware of anyway, until about a month and a half into the heating season, at which point I started to get a lot of noise and when I went into the basement saw the sight glass plunging and immediately knew I had waited too long to drain and flush. There was no oil in the water from that job trust me. Everything was cleaned with isopropyl alcohol.

Why would I tolerate it? UHHH. Well it took me several years of patching holes in my 16 ft. section of main. Without giving you my balance sheet, I didn't want to spend the money to have someone do it (possibly a lousy job) and I prefer to do things myself. So I thought about that for several years before coming up with the plan, with the help of Gordon at Silent Steam Team giving me the reassurance my plan was sound.

Repiping a boiler is expensive. I'm sure you know this. Now that I have the management scheme firmly established I plan to wait until the boiler fails, maybe in 5 to 10 years if I'm lucky. Then of course I will do it correctly. Are you telling me that draining and flushing a steam boiler once a year is that out of the ordinary? If that is all I have to do I'm ok with it. You are missing the point that whether it is finances, laziness, fear of attempting, not knowing someone in the trade that is good and I can trust, whatever….I have learned how to manage a poor installation over my 21 years of experience, and I have done lots of fixes you don't know about, but I don't appreciate being told that what I have learned I need to do is unnecessary. Very aggravating. But regardless, I can pass on what I have learned, not to people with a perfect install, but to people who are in a similar situation.

I am probably at the point where I have screwed up my courage to attempt the re-do on the Hartford Loop this next off season and will probably add a full port ball valve for doing a no-return flush. Sweat soldering pipes of that size is not easy I'm sure.

pH is 9.6 I told you. I don't know why I needed more to get that pH. The pH drops dramatially when it has been in the system and steaming for a few days. Maybe that is due to carbonic acid but I don't know. I have also said that my digital meter is out of action until batteries arrive. Maybe the pH hydrion paper is giving me a false reading. What would be the big deal in taking some out and just putting in water in its place? I don't see a problem. Maybe you could explain what the problem is when the system is running so silently and surge free where surging in the sight glass is nill.

Why are things not up for discussion? Stalking? That's wacko 🤣 You seem to think that disagreement constitutes disrespect. It does not. I have complimented him on his videos and his efforts many times. It is the conclusions that I do not agree with. Don't project on me please.

Why do you not see that him gaslighting me that my annual draining and flushing is not necessary when clearly it is, is something that could be interpreted as a form of disrespect. But that is OK. I will push back politely with or without your approval.

And you are telling a story now, that I am "arguing with everyone" 🤣

What about that whole Dimension A thing that the equalizer does not need to be there for you found out in one of your previous videos is now understandable today.

@ethicalpaul… Try This:

Start the boiler with the equalizer valve closed and that way you won't get the boiler water to back up in the equalizer as it does.  Then you will see that the dimension A may have had a purpose back in the day when the steam fitters were experimenting with different pipe sizes and higher pressure boilers.  I bet that water will back up a lot higher in the dry return …kind of cancelling your no need for the equalizer argument along with the no need for a dimension A argument.  

The boiler manufacturers have given us overkill designs to make sure that there is no need for the Dimension A in your home.  The piping design is way overkill for no need for the equalizer idea also.  The old coal fired boilers that did not have an equalizer and did not have a large enough dimension A as a result of the boiler pressure, could have had the boiler water get pushed out of the boiler up in the return and end up dry firing if there was no Hartford loop.  

I’m so glad you actually saw that happen in your own home.  WOW!

@EBEBRATT-Ed. You are showing your age!

How did all the people our age get to be so old?

I loved it when you saw all the pressure (less than 1PSI) push that water out of the boiler in your own home. You hinted in your latest video that you could close the equalizer valve you used in a previous video that indicated there was no need for an equalizer or it was named wrong. I can't remember which. But you actually saw the water get pushed out the wrong way in your own boiler. That is picture proof that there may have been a reason for those old timers that are all dead to write this stuff down in books so we don't need to have a boiler explosion every day and a half to remind us that there is a reason for these things. Although that reason is mitigated with all the other changes that the old timers made.

You're an old timer and you fix one problem, and then you find another, then another, then another. After fixing all the problems you never tested if the first problem's fix is even necessary anymore. you just write it down as the thing to do. Then everyone (in the Know) just follows the leader and keeps doing it that way.

Your boiler obviously does not need a two riser drop header, but I think you are happy with the results. Would you only use one riser if you piped it in today with what you have learned from your experiments and tests?

By the way… Keep up the good work!

Mr. Ed

I'm not saying your experiments are junk. I rather like the experiments. I like the fact we are seeing inside the boiler piping. I don't know how you find the time but I do commend you for at least looking at what's going on. The only other place you can see what's going on is the weil McLain boiler trailer. It's fascinating to see inside the piping.

But I don't think you can argue with the physics of a steam system. And I also don't think you can throw away 100 plus years of engineering based on a simple residential experiment. Things are never that simple. I have had a couple of boilers piped with no equalizer, no header, and no Hartford loop. (1) six foot supply riser to a bull head tee. Basically violated every steam piping principal we were ever taught. And it ran whisper quiet. But I have also never piped in a proper "near boiler piping" boiler and have that piping been the problem. I can always rule out that for creating the issue if there is a problem after installing a new boiler.

i think if you tried to violate these piping principals in a commercial boiler install you would pay dearly for your mistakes. I have a system that has two boilers piped in parallel but is in violation of " near boiler piping piping" principals and bangs like crazy. it's has so much carry over i'm surprised it hasn't blown a fitting apart. Under your theory I shouldn't have the near boiler piping corrected because a simple residential experiment shows something different. I think that's outrageous and doesn't help people who come here for help. It only creates confusion.

My first rule of steam service is to correct the near boiler piping if it is not done to the specifications provided by the manufacturer and the "near boiler piping" principals taught by the engineers and reprinted by Dan.

i'm not trying to be combative here so don't take these as trying to be combative. I'm just defending my position on what I believe to be true and after so many years in the field.

Like many here, I love the work that Paul is doing. Can probably write an entire essay, praising his experiments, questioning status que..... Paul's conclusions, about the importance of proper water quality, are monumental and eye-opening. Full disclaimer, I have not watched much of the videos or done a deep dive into every point he has made. So I may be working off of some degree of misinformation. Experiments that he has done with reduced piping sizes..... have been done with his boiler and it's pristine water. Realistically speaking, it's nearly impossible for most residential steam boilers, to achieve that level of water quality. The overwhelming majority of homeowners, don't have the interest or ability, to do what it takes to achieve that level of water quality. Most homeowners cannot be bothered do anything at all with their boilers. Which is fine. Only way to achieve that water quality, would require multiple visits from a professional. Any water treatments, could potentially loosen sludge that already exists in the boiler or in the returns. Could possibly require multiple visits by a professional. At significant cost. There is no way that's most homeowners would agree to these costs. Most systems involve make up water. Which certainly could mess up water quality. No one is boiling their water, and no one is hiring a professional to check pH levels and total dissolved solids, every time make up water is added to the boiler. So realistically speaking, most boilers will have less than ideal water quality. Which means that proper piping is critical to compensate.

Right. And he did it with a brand spanking new over the top overbuilt installation, maintained to perfection from the git go, short experiments aside. Maybe the rest of his piping in his house and radiators are very well done as well.

1000% agree. Homeowners and contractors, should pay attention to water quality. But we know that they don't. It's a struggle to get homeowners to do any maintenance. Or more precisely, it's a struggle to get homeowners to hire someone to do any maintenance. No way under the sun, any homeowner is hiring contractors, to come back for multiple visits... Therefore, the working assumption is that most residential boilers, will have water that is some degree of bad. Or some degree of less than ideal. Which means that proper piping, or even over piping, is beneficial.

Just for example. Should I leave 8 way in a customers boiler? Will obviously provide all of its benefits. But what happens when a slug of sludge gets dislodged from the wet return. Now things in the boiler are worse then when we started. Customer certainly not going to be happy paying for that. And contractor certainly won't be happy to come back and do another visit for free. And there's no reason that he should. So sometimes we need to balance the ideal world versus The realistic world.