Loud hissing from nearly all radiators during this cold spell
Hi, we have a single-pipe steam system that is an endless source of annoyance. Had a near Near boiler installed by Toro in northern New Jersey three years ago. The recent annoyance is that when the weather gets very cold like it is now, nearly all of our radiators make loud hissing noises whenever the system is on, and it's on a lot with the temps near 0 over night these days. There's no steam coming out, and this only happens when temps drop below a certain level. Is this a normal thing, or is there anything we can do about it?
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What make radiator vents do you use ?
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I don't know the brand, but most of them look like this:
Thought we also paid a stupid amount of money to get a bunch of fancy castrata vents because we thought it would allow us to control the temp in specific room (hint: it really doesn't). Those ones also hiss in this weather.
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has someone ben servicing the pigtail on the boiler that goes to the pressuretrol?
btw there are less pretty but just as effective TRVs for single pipe radiator vents from a number of other manufacturers. Remember the TRV can only stop a 1 pipe radiator from heating at the begining of the cycle, once it is already heating it can't stop the heat so your boiler needs to cycle somewhat frequently and you need to have the system more or less balanced to begin with for them to work well.
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I don't think so. We have it serviced earlier this year, but I don't think that was part of it. Also, this has happened every winter, it just hasn't been this cold here until this year, so it's happening more.
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I guess i would need to know what the noise is. Steam flowing makes a little bit of noise, the air vents can make some noise, the vents can make more noise if the main vents aren't working. is it @JohnNY 's toro plumbing? They should be able to sort it out for you or tell you if it is normal. John is one of the best residential steam people. You could end up with more pressure on a couple remaining vents if the mains and most of the radiators are full of steam or if a TRV opens on a cold radiator while most of the system is already filled with steam.
If you are trying to use the TRVs as individual thermostats for each room rather than to tame a few rooms that are overheating, if many of them are closed then the air is going to make more noise getting out of the few remaining radiators.
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Either your pigtail for the pressuretrol is clogged or the pressuretrol is turned up way too high of a cut out pressure for your vents to be able to handle.
If you are at all handy it isn't hard to remove a pressuretrol and clean it out.
But anyway, show us a picture of the pressuretrol with the cover on, and with the cover off.
Not seeing visible steam coming out doesn't mean it isn't. Put a dental mirror (or inspection mirror) up against one of the holes in the vents and I bet you'll see fogging or even drops of water on it.
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It's a very loud hissing, like very loud. It only happens when it is very cold, so I don't think it can be related to the TRVs.
[Unrelated annoyance, but related to another part of your comment. After the new boiler was put in, many of the radiators no longer got hot. We had the guys come out several times, but they never fixed it, and they charged us a bundle. The boiler then started to leak water at some of the joints within a year and had corrosion. The company wanted to charge us to fix their shoddy workmanship, so we instead had another guy on this forum fix it since I didn't want to give the original company more money to fix their mistake. That guy also pointed out a number of significant mistakes that were made with the boiler installation that he estimated would take over 10K for him to fix, so needless to say, we're not too happy with Toro.]
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Just trying to clarify, is this true even though the hissing only happens when it is super cold outside?
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if a bunch of the radiators aren't heating then the air that should be venting out of those radiators is all going to be trying to vent out of the few radiators that are heating and it will be noisier. figure out why the other radiators aren't heating. was it skimmed a few times after it was installed and after piping was changed? if it is surging you will likely have problems with part of the system not heating.
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The other radiators are heating now, that's not the issue. All of the radiators are heating now (except one, for reasons unknown, but there are like 25 in the house), after we had some work done by the other guy. But the hissing has always happened when it is super cold out.
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It's normal. Steam is FAR from silent on cold days like we have right now (even with proper main venting, working radiator vents, insulation on the pipes and pressuretroll set to less than 2 psi.)
Side note 1. Learn a bit about your boiler and your vents or you gonna chase an endless loop of ineptitude (and still pay $$) or have an expert fix it for $$$.
Side note 2. This site is a great resource so you are not that far away from becoming an expert yourself.
Steam Heat YouTube videos:
https://www.youtube.com/@HeatingBlog0 -
At -8f the loudest part of my single pipe steam system is the gas valve clicking. Nothing hisses or makes noise, at least not anything anyone would ever notice. I might get a very slight noise from some vents but you need to be right by the vent to hear anything at all.
I don't know anything about your setup it sounds like your boiler is oversized and or your venting is undersized.
Single pipe 392sqft system with an EG-40 rated for 325sqft and it's silent and balanced at all times.
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Listen to your system and it will tell you what is wrong with it. My single pipe system started to tell me something was wrong about a month and a half into this heating season. I knew that I should have drained and flushed the boiler and the returns but I was a bit beaten up from the 16 ft steam main replacement job I did myself and skipped it. It sounded nice and silent at the beginning of the season with just a whisper of sound coming from the vents and very little panting. Then the panting got worse and started to hear startup bang when the wet steam hit the end of my steam main. Going down into the basement revealed the surging in the sight glass and I knew what was happening.
Now, after draining and flushing, even at 3deg F yesterday everything was back to being nearly silent.
I think you have had some people doing work, and for a jacked up price, that have done less than right by you. One of the classic things they will do is crank up the pressuretrol setting rather than try to find out why the system isn't balanced, and that's an easy thing they can do and get themselves out the door. Again, you really should take a picture of your pressuretrol with the cover on and off and we can see if this was done. If lowering the pressure setting doesn't allow even heating to all the radiators, then you need to proceed from there.
Also, a few pictures of your near boiler piping, from different angles. You'll really get a lot better help here if you do these things on your end.
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I'm with others, it should be silent no matter how much it's running. I haven't heard a peep from mine in years. The last noise I had was some expansion noise in the living room that I fixed with a piece of milk jug.
Loud vents are typically due to too much pressure. I heard mine when the boiler was first installed and it was surging a good bit. Once that was in order the vents have been silent for over 10 years.
It's definitely not normal as @patrykrebisz stated.
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I can add in as others have………when running properly, the system should be pretty quiet. I have a single pipe system (in northern NJ, not that it matters where it is) and these past few days with it getting down to 0 degrees F it's been just ever so slightly noticeable in extra venting noise. But I'm just tuned it to what my system sounds like when it's running at 20 degrees vs 0 degrees. I will add in………a few weeks back my pressuretrol was sticking, the system was getting up to 1 psi until it shut off. The amount of vent noise the system made when at 1 psi was significantly more than when running at very low (normal) pressure. My low pressure gauge is a 0-5 psi, and the needle sits on the 0 stop when the system is running normally.
Those few weeks back at 1 psi (with a sticking PT) even my wife was asking about all the radiator vent noise was about………the experts here on this site will guide you in the proper direction, just get them the pictures of your system that they ask for.
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What kind of Pressuretrol do you have that you can set the cutout to as low as 1psi? Mine is Honeywell (additive) and lowest setting is 1.5 psi cutout and 0.5 psi cut-in. It sounds suspiciously like your pigtail is clogged and you might be getting much higher than 1 psi and don't know it. If you haven't done so recently, I'd clean that pigtail.
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put an air vent to your mouth and blow thtough it lightly. you WILL hear a whistling sound. this is physics. steam involves air passing through multiple air openings. this passage of air WILL make a sound.
now blow through it harderd: the sound will increase. the higher the "blow" (caused by the preasure buildup in your boiler), the louder the sound.
the consensus is to keep the preassure as low as possible (1.5-2psi max) but even at that preassure, as was pointed out, the sound will be much higher than at just a few ounces.
most of us have oversized boilers (that will increase speed of preassure buildup) or systems that in some ways are imperfect. some things can be done about it (pipe insulation, setting pressuretrol properly etc). others can't short of spending $$$$.
the first thing is to accept that some sound in steam heat IS normal. chasing the proverbial "silent steam" is, in my opinion, a futile exercise. second thing, is to educate yourself to know which sounds are normal and which indicate bigger problems.
(my 2 cents)
Steam Heat YouTube videos:
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My boiler is way oversized so it cycles on pressure. The colder it is, the more it cycles and spends more time at the high pressure limit. Things I've learned over the years:
- I had no main vents. The radiator vents then have to bleed all of the air in the system before the steam can actually get to the radiators. I installed some main vents and now the only air that needs to escape the radiators is the air that is actually in them.
- Before I knew better, my pressure was set too high at 3psi. I've since turned it down to 1psi after installing a vaporstat. Even without main vents that made a big difference.
Before these adjustments my radiator vents would bang open…followed by a long, loud hiss….then slam shut. Multiple times each heat cycle. I thought it was normal, it isn't.
If a boiler is properly sized for the EDR of the radiators and the mains are properly vented, the operating pressure even on the coldest day will be ounces, not pounds of pressure. It will be completely silent.
As others said, lets see some pictures of the boiler controls so we can see what pressure you are operating at. And some pictures of your main vents also if you have any.
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Some vents are louder than others, I like Gortons.
I stopped following the 1.5-2PSI stuff a long time ago. Even at 1/4 PSI I find it annoying, under that is decent. I have my system setup to shut down at roughly 1/4 PSI and wait 10 minutes. This is primary because I have TRV's on 5 out of 10 radiators, and if the pressure built up even that high, things need to wait for more demand and whatever radiators that did get hot to dissipate some heat.
Single pipe 392sqft system with an EG-40 rated for 325sqft and it's silent and balanced at all times.
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You should only hear a slight and brief whistle as the vents close and pressure starts to build. No system is perfectly balanced and the last vent to close in the house may make a tad bit more whistle. But it should last for a very short time and then go silent. If there is prolonged whistling/hissing, then something is wrong with that vent and/or the pressure in the boiler is way too high.
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It seems from your description and answers that the vents on your radiators are doing all of the venting.
Look to the vents on your system. The ones located in the basement near the boiler and at the end of the mains. If they are working too, you can add more venting at those points.
Go to your thermostat and turn the heat up. Then go to your basement and look and listen for the sound of the vents. If they are working, you can add some vents with the ones you have now. If they are not working, they should be fixed or replaced. If it were me I would add more either way.
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@ Captain Who - pigtail is brand new from this past November and I rechecked it a month ago to make sure it wasn't clogged. It was as clean inside as the day I installed it in November.
AFA as the PTrol, it's a Honeywell set just above the 0.5 mark cut in mark. My 0-5 gauge (also brand new) it teed in just below the Ptrol above the pigtail.
All I know is that the system runs silent, provides plenty of heat, and reads 0 on the 0-5 gauge all the time……….except for that one time the system was running continuously and reading 1 psi (maybe slightly above that). The knowledgeable personnel here mentioned that it may have a stuck Ptrol and would not shut off the system properly. I ended shutting down my thermostat, manually activating the Ptrol switch a few times and lubricating the pivot joints with some light lubricant. Seems to have taken care of it as the issue has not returned. Plan is to put in a vaporstat, I was actually going to send out a message asking what the correct one to use was. But that's for a different discussion………..lets's help the OP with his steam system issues in this discussion.
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OK. I was thinking that my vents would not be making any noise at 1 psi of boiler pressure. I'll let further comments wait until you open your vaporstat thread. Maybe your boiler is very nicely sized for your system and can't produce any more than 1 psi. Mine would go…..I don't want to know how high it would go…lol. No vaporstat for you (vaporstat nazi to me).
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@Goodhap I am experiencing the same issue of long sustained hissing on some of my radiators. I replaced a broken main vent that was probably 50+ years old, added another main vent in an attempt to 'balance' my single pipe system, and sized the correct radiator vents for each of my radiators based on my calculations. The system was dead quiet at the beginning of the season but as it got colder there are periodic instances of loud hissing. I think we may be in a similar situation.
I have completely replaced my pigtail and confirmed that my pressuretrol cutout is <2 psi. I think my old honeywell presseretrol is not functioning correctly because it never goes to pressure cut off as the system cycles naturally. I think the issues lies with the overall pressure of your/my system in that the presseuretrol is not working, thus the PSI in the system is too high and not being regulated safely/efficiently.
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In a perfect world, your Pressuretrol should only be there as a safety limit, it shouldn't be regulating the system.
Basically, your boiler is producing more steam than the system can use. This is either because the boiler is too big, or the venting is too slow. Or both.Single pipe 392sqft system with an EG-40 rated for 325sqft and it's silent and balanced at all times.
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@ChrisJ thank you. I still get hung up that it never hits the cut off limit. Ever. I know that these units can be a bit temperamental and I have tried to use a screw driver to adjust the spring, but it never really seems to work. I've sat there while the system ran and it will run nonstop until the periodic low water test stops the boiler.
@Captain Who thank you. I have thought of this but was not able to get around to it last season. I feel like I read a thread here where someone suggested that but they commented something along the lines of (sic) "The pressure gauge never moves when the boiler is operating". Don't hold a gun to my head on this line of thinking but I feel like that made me skip adding a pressure gauge in line with my pigtail and pressuretrol.
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And always confirm that the pressuretrol is functional. It isn't just for efficiency. It is also 1st line safety feature before the Pressure Relief Valve.
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here is the video on how to check your pressuretrol, yes they often come straight from factory badly pre-set:
https://youtu.be/KCe_G7aRTN0
Steam Heat YouTube videos:
https://www.youtube.com/@HeatingBlog0 -
Another issue is we have to establish the difference between normal venting of air and faulty venting of steam. People say "hissing" but different people use different words for what they are hearing. If the vents are leaking steam, as shown by placing a dental or inspection mirror at the outlet and looking for fogging or water droplets, then they are either defective or the pressure in the boiler is above their ability to stay closed.
So check them for steam leakage first. Then find out what the pressure in the boiler is with a gauge and then check to see if the pressuretrol is functional on a long heating cycle from a setback or something.
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I believe so. I notice this in the morning when the thermostat program goes from 68 to 72.
@Captain Who @patrykrebisz I watched about a dozen videos last season to test and tune up my specific pressuretrol and I can't say if it has done anything at all. I can manually trigger the spring and confirm that the boiler shuts off but it never triggers cut off during operation. I'll check the vents with a compact mirror the next chance I get to confirm if the vents are the source of the steam loss.
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@Day_Tripper, you are playing with the wrong screws. They key is in the back of the pressuretrol.
(Silent Steam Team has many great videos, plus mine i've linked to above shows how to fix it too)
Steam Heat YouTube videos:
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I have a Honeywell L403. Is there a specific video you recommend or is one in your comment your best bet?
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I know I watched a few of Silent Steam Team videos on this. Go through these ones:
https://www.youtube.com/@gordonschweizer5154 /search?query=pressuretrol
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