Need a new Hydronic Oil Fired Boiler
I am going to be replacing a Keystoker KAA-2 automatic coal fired boiler. It works well but I am tired of moving bags of coal around. Coal quality seems to be going down as well. Lots of bone in it lately. I installed it myself the fall of 2009.
The prior boiler was installed in 1969. I assume the oil tank is that old as well. The boiler was all steel with oval vertical fire passages. The hot water coil was mounted vertically in the center of the boiler. It was using 1000 gallons of oil per year for my small home. Switching to coal quickly paid off.
It seems most oil fired boilers are made with cast iron. I don't like cast iron. So I am looking for a steel boiler. The only brand that offers steel boilers seems to be Thermo-Dynamics. Is it a good brand? Are there other boilers that are not cast iron?
I have a quote for Energy Kinetics EK1. I kind of like that boiler. Just don't like that I wont be able to buy parts for it myself. Although getting older and lazier I might not want to service a boiler myself but should.
Comments
-
What's wrong with cast iron? Some people cook on it. Many people have very reliable boilers made from it. We have two old cast iron boilers, and I plan on getting one or two more to replace them when they bite the dust. They're already 30+ years old and could last for another 10 years. Buderus would be my choice. Well made, easy to clean/service, and oil companies here in the Northeast are very familiar with them.
1 -
This brand?
Bob "hot rod" Rohr
trainer for Caleffi NA
Living the hydronic dream0 -
Cast iron would be better, last longer than steel.
Energy Kinetics would be the most efficient. All their parts are easily accessible. Depending on model, there are easy work arounds to keep you up and running while you get the parts. Basically, depending on model, it's either the Energy Manager, which can be put into service mode and still work properly, or the aquastat, which can use an off the shelf Hydrostat with a slight wiring change.
Most important is a properly sized, properly installed, properly commissioned system.
2 -
I like cast iron cookware. I have a belief that cast iron is brittle, easy to crack. Modern cast iron boilers might be thinner than old cast iron. Also I don't like that there are sections. More places to leak.
Somehow I missed that New Yorker offered steel boilers. When searching the internet for steel boilers most results were cast iron.
0 -
You might want to read up on Buderus cast iron. It's a proprietary alloy that Buderus claims is more flexible than "traditional" cast iron, and thus resistant to thermal shock, etc. Many pros have high praise for it.
I am not a pro, just a homeowner/engineer, but you can read what the pros here have to say about Buderus cast iron. If you take some time to research it, you might find that "modern" cast iron is better than you think.
2 -
Whatever make that you go with don’t use one with a tankless coil for domestic. Use a heating boiler with an indirect tank for domestic. That will save you about 30% on fuel vs a tankless coil.
I’d highly recommend either the Buderus or the Energy Kinetics.
Bob Boan
You can choose to do what you want, but you cannot choose the consequences.
4 -
There is nothing wrong with a steel boiler for hot water heat. No sections or rubber gaskets to leak.
Steel was used in the past and lasted a long time. With the way CI boilers are now I have no doubt that a steel boiler would outlast a Burnham
2 -
Hpw often do you brush out the water baffles on your KAA-2?
I would change coal suppliers and or start burning Buckwheat Anthracite coal instead before you rip out that beautiful coal stoker.
I have a KAA-4-1 dual fuel unit with the same 3 bed stoker that you have. My supplier has Blashack coal.
I have my stoker set at 12 threads out and I have fine powder ash and heavy dead ash on some days and I average 20+ pounds of ash a day burning 75 pounds a day of rice coal.
Switching to a fuel that will give you less energy than Anthracite Rice coal which averages between 25-28 Million BTU per short ton back to kerosene that will give you 135, 000 BTU per gallon is an expensive proposition especially if you need to dispose of the old tank and install the new boiler.
Selling the kaa-2 on coalpail.com and buying an EFM dual fuel DF520 pot stoker makes more sense as switching to the oil burner only requires moving the oil burner door open to use it.
I am assuming you have Blashack coal and their strip mining mess and nothing from a supplier that is strip mining the thick mammoth coal vein.
If we were burning Sub Bituminous Stoker Coal from Montana or Wyoming we would have a fine powder ash that would barely fill a single ash basket every week.
I would buy 20 bags of Buckwheat Anthracite as the keystoker was designed to burn buckwheat Anthracite and then take the time to make sure there is no fly ash behind the flue baffle and be sure the air duct under the three fire grates has no fly ash or coal fines plugging it up and vacuuming the combustion fan out and oiling the Fasco blower motor before I made a major decision about changing fuels.
0 -
I clean the entire inside of the Keystoker once each year. It runs fine and even with the bone in the ash bucket, I can't see whether I am actually using more coal. I have seen posts on coalpail about unburned ash. On a day with no extreme wind and around freezing temperature it will use about 60 lbs of rice coal. Has always been that way. On really cold days, say 10 degrees it will use double that. House was built around 1820. Drafty. For hot water during the summer it will use about 75 lbs a week. Keep the house temperature at 73 degrees.
I am a member at coalpail. Don't post much. Recently someone wanted to sell a KAA-2, it took a long time. I think it eventually was given away. So I expect mine will be scrapped. Don't think those other boilers will fit my basement. Floor to bottom of floor joists is 54". Chimney entrance is less and the basement is small.
The Keystoker is the only heat source here. I need something my wife can run. She is 4' 8" and one of her arms does not work well. Luckily nothing has happened that I am not able to keep it running. I am tired of the work involved in using coal.
Using the Fuel Comparson Calculator at CoalPail I have not been saving much over oil the last 2 years. I think it was the same cost for awhile. But it's difficult knowing the efficiency values to plug in the calculator.
0 -
I also highly recommend Energy Kinetics boilers. I'm in the process of installing an EK-1F System 2000 in my own house right now. I'm a service technician and I work on all sorts of boilers every day and I believe that Energy Kinetics makes the highest quality boilers. Especially if you want a steel boiler, you won't find anything better than an EK.
3 -
No judgement here :) If you are ready to abandon coal that is up to you. I heated with wood boilers for may years and got weary of the cutting, splitting, cleaning ritual.
Bob "hot rod" Rohr
trainer for Caleffi NA
Living the hydronic dream1 -
If I was still burning K-1 kerosene I would be using 275 gallons a week to heat this place.
Anthracite coal will vary between 13,000-15,000 BTU per pound or 22,000,000 to 25,000,000 BTU per short ton.
K-1 Kerosene is 135,000 BTU per gallon you would be burning 163 gallons of K-1 kerosene to equal one short ton of anthracite at the 22,000,000 BTU per short ton figure.
The Leisure line WL-110 is a small dual fuel Anthracite rice coal stoker that is smaller than the KAA-2.
Using a coal vac eliminates lifting the bags to fill the hopper. Here is a link for the coal vac on youtube. You could just slit the top of the bag and vacuum the rice coal into the barrel above the hopper and when the barrel is full you would shut the vacuum off and let the coal drop into the hopper to fill it.
As far as Toms kaa-2 went people were waiting to see when or if it was going to be cut up before they offered to take it and the draft inducer that was all that amounted to.
Here is the coal vac video. www.youtube.com/watch?v=yKptXtqxSjc
0 -
Cast iron vs steel. I have been puzzled by the affinity for Cast I find on this forum. I have installed and serviced many Thermo-Dynamics and NY steel boilers over the years. I never saw a steel pressure vessel fail but I sure have seen numerous Cast ones fail. There are a lot of steel boilers out there 30, 40, even 60 yrs old . No section joints to leak.
3 -
Agree. Nothing wrong with steel. I have cut steel pipe apart from a hydronic systems that were 40-50 years old and the pipe is like new on the inside.
All high-pressure steam boilers are steel. No CI over 15psi on steam.. Used to be tons of steel boilers used on steam and HW. Kewanee, Dillon, Fitzgibbons, Spencer, GE. Columbia the list goes on.
Just looked I didn't realize Columbia went out of business last June.
Thermodynamics, EK and New Yorker make steel
1 -
Sincere question out of ignorance: I have no experience with a steel boiler. I imagine they could be lighter than cast iron, as steel has better tensile strength, isn't so brittle, and given the advantage of no joints, why aren't we all using steel boilers now?
0 -
All the big commercial and industrial stuff is steel. HP steam is always steel.
Steel probably is a little lighter but if a steel boiler won't fit through the door its an issue. CI can be taken apart the block split or the boiler is ordered knocked down. Commercial and industrial if the boiler won't fit they cut a hole in the roof or knock a hole in the wall.
In NYC and other places they in some instances have steel boiler 5 floors up or 3 floors below grade. They can assemble a steel boiler in place but very expensive but it is sometimes done.
I really don't know why they got away from steel for residential, especially for HW. EK, New Yorker and Thermodynamics are still around. There may be others. I searched a little and found Columbia was out of business last July. No Mod Cons are CI, Aluminum or SS
1 -
Thanks everyone! I will be picking one of the 3 brands in a few months.
0 -
Using the Fuel Calculator at coalpail it looks like I save save 300 on 100 million btu. I use about 5.5 million btu for heat and hot water a week when the weather is right around freezing.
I can buy Number 2 fuel oil for $3.10/gallon today. My cost for picked up bagged rice is $466/ton. I used 80% efficiency for the coal boiler. Used 85% for a new oil fired boiler.
That Leisure Line looks like a nice boiler. Will not fit my basement height. The KAA-2 was the only alternative fuel boiler that would fit. It is not listed in Keystokers current installation manual.
0 -
Hello and good morning Expenses1188,
Have you contacted any of the coal breakers or suppliers such as Superior, Lehigh or Centralia Coal Sales for price quotes on bagged rice coal?
Anthracite coal has had a tremendous price jump due to the war in Ukraine. a great deal of the Anthracite Coal being mined here is being shipped to Europe.
Can you take advantage of buying your rice coal in bulk to save money?
The European made EKO DUO 15 hybrid boiler is another brand of coal boiler that can burn rice, buckwheat, pea and stoker anthracite and bituminous coal.
The EKO DUO 15 is an underfed auger pot/tuyere stoker which has the hopper connected to the boiler base. via the coal delivery tube. The coal hopper can hold 585 pounds of coal and the hopper has a sealed lid. The flue is 6 inches in size.
The mbtek home page has complete information on these coal stokers. There are videos of these coal stokers on you tube as well.
ww.mbtek.com
1 -
Hey Leonz,
Another nice looking boiler. Efficiency is outstanding. But again to tall for my application. And don't want to engineer ways to automate feed coal to hopper and removing ash for disposal that may fail at a bad time. Or dig the basement deeper. The juice does not appear to worth the squeeze.
I live on a smallish,narrow property, in a small town. A high lift delivery truck for bulk delivery would fit in the driveway but there is a electric support cable that runs from a pole behind the house, across the driveway to across the street.
The EK boiler that was quoted for my home has a base that can be removed allowing it fit in situations like mine. I am liking the Thermo-dynamics HT boiler though. Will get a quote on that next.
0 -
Hello Expenses1188,
Would a 10 by 20 hoop shed with a solid rear wall for a thimble and stove pipe be out of the question for the keystoker? You could have bulk rice delivered to the hoop shed and have the delivery truck pour it against one wall covered in plywood and a plywood floor?
0 -
Thank you for all your posts and for your questions, @Expenses1188 , and thank you for considering Energy Kinetics and placing your confidence in our company and our 30 year proven boilers.
We often like to ask "why you are doing this?", but it seems clear that you want to move to heating system that requires less physical interaction than your existing coal system, while at the same time having affordable fuel bills and a reasonable installed cost that will fit in your low ceiling basement. Maybe there are other reasons?
As your 1969 oil boiler was using 1000 gallons per year, based on technology generally installed at that time, I would be surprised if you did not save 25% or significantly more with a System 2000 Frontier boiler (in a recent NORA field study, the only top performing boiler type is low mass with thermal purge, Energy Kinetics; due to high mass, cast iron is not a good match for thermal purge due to possible overheating of zones so those savings are out of reach). Conservatively, then 750 gallons x $3.10/gallon you mentioned is about $2,400 per year. It will also be quieter, provide you and your wife nearly endless hot water, and be installed by a heating professional that our company knows and has vetted for quality, further, we are here to support you and all our customers with attentive customer service if you should ever need it. Additionally, @HydronicMike made excellent points about the parts and availability, regarding an additional concern you mentioned.
If you PM me with your location and contact information, I can put you in touch with your territory manager to help answer any questions you may have more directly, and to coordinate with your heating professional if desired.
Best,
Roger
President
Energy Kinetics, Inc.0
Categories
- All Categories
- 87.4K THE MAIN WALL
- 3.2K A-C, Heat Pumps & Refrigeration
- 61 Biomass
- 429 Carbon Monoxide Awareness
- 120 Chimneys & Flues
- 2.1K Domestic Hot Water
- 5.8K Gas Heating
- 115 Geothermal
- 168 Indoor-Air Quality
- 3.7K Oil Heating
- 77 Pipe Deterioration
- 1K Plumbing
- 6.5K Radiant Heating
- 395 Solar
- 15.7K Strictly Steam
- 3.4K Thermostats and Controls
- 56 Water Quality
- 51 Industry Classes
- 50 Job Opportunities
- 18 Recall Announcements