best glycol and mix for my boiler system?
I screwed up and had a failed expansion tank that was causing my PRV to leak. I allowed about 20 gallons to leak out over the past month. As a result, I diluted my glycol and it needs to be replaced. Cryotek 100 was recommended to me. Is this like a car where the mix will be 50%. How do I figure out how much I will need? I would consider doing the job myself if there are good videos on how to do it. Any help with this process or product is greatly appreciated. Thank you.
Comments
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A few suggestions:
You do not want to blend different brands as they use different inhibitors that may not get along.
My process would be to squirt in a cleaner and run that for a day to get the system to a good starting point for new glycol. Flush it out well.
This system cleaner comes in a squirt can, screw it onto a purge or drain valve, hose thread, open valve, and pull trigger. Be sure it is tightly connected as the can empties in seconds!
Choose a glycol brand and the %. Most brands have info on the container for protection. Generally 30- 35% is adequate, but decide on the lowest temperature you want protection to.
This Fernox Alphi 11 at 35% will flow down to, -11°F burst at -40°F
You will need some way to pump it into the system and purge air out. A 5 gallon bucket or plastic garbage can allows you to pump out, and purge back int the bucket until you do not see or hear air bubbles. This can take some time depending on the piping, zones and amount of fluid.
Simple and inexpensive is a 5 gallon bucket with a small submersible type pump from the Home Stores, 1/2hp is plenty.
Or find pool or spa pump on Marketplace and build a system like this.
Some hydronic wholesalers have pump carts to rent or loan, that makes it a simple, safe job.
I would buy pre-mixed glycol and use it right out of the bucket. Then you have the correct blend.
You do not want a fill system connected that could add water and dilute the mix, as you have learned.
Some choose to add a glycol fill tank to add fluid as air bleeds out.
Glycol is very slow to give up entrained air, it may take days for a good air purger to get the system 100% air free. You will need to boost pressure up to 12 psi a few times as air slowly comes
Bob "hot rod" Rohr
trainer for Caleffi NA
Living the hydronic dream0 -
That is a very helpful post. Thank you. I am considering doing this job myself and will certainly have additional questions.
Cryo Tek 100 was the product that was suggested by a local boiler guy. I am fine with idea of buying concentrate and then simply mixing it with distilled water. My understanding is that will be a little more cost effective. The guy had suggested mixing it at 50%. I live in NY and rarely we get temps down to zero or subzero. There are plenty of single digit nights. But, according to the charts, 50% mix might be a little over kill. Aside from cost, are there additional negatives to higher concentration?
Everybody that hears I have glycol in the system tells me how bad the glycol is for all my system parts, but they know I have no choice as I have an air handler and coil in an unheated attic.
My brother is going to help me calculate how much we might need. I believe we need to calculate the linear feet of pipe. Then we have to figure out how much the boiler and 2 coils hold. One guy thought I might need 20 gallons of concentrate, so 40 gallons of total mix. That just sounds like a lot to me.
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@clydesdale in simple terms, antifreeze reduces the heat output. For example, you may get away with 150 degree water and heat your home on the coldest night. Add thirty percent glycol mix and you might need 170 degrees.. Add fifty percent glycol mix and you might need 190 degrees.
In addition the fluid does not flow as well when antifreeze is added. You may need a slightly larger circulator.
For these reasons and cost you don't want to use more glycol/antifreeze than you actually need. One method to determine the capacity of a relatively small system is to fill the system with water and vent all of the air out. Then drain the system into empty five gallon buckets.
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Will this product work the same as F3? Supplyhouse is where I often order from. Thank you.
X800RD - Sentinel X800RD - Sentinel X800 Fast Acting Cleaner Rapid-Dose
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How do you introduce the cleaners that don't screw onto a drain and get shot in?
Also, I don't think I am going to go with the auto feed system this time. But, I would love to know more about them. At this moment, I need to simply make the system safe from freezing and enjoy the holidays. I can then research this another time and when I replace my attic air handler in the next couple of years, I will then consider this upgrade? What is the need for this expensive device if the house has been fine without it for 27 years? Thanks.
Just a crazy thought. Could I drain the upstairs heating system in the unconditioned attic while I am away for 2 weeks in the winter and not put glycol in the system? Just simply drain that loop? I realize I would not have heat in that loop, but wouldn't that make it safe or am I totally off base? Thanks.
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@clydesdale I live in MA where our design temp is 0 deg. We occasionally see-5—10 maybe 2-3 timeas a winter. We used 30% glycol with water and never froze anything up. Even equipment that was outdoors. Two much is harder to pump and slows heat transfer. Freezing point and bursting point is two different things. It may get slushy thats about it
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you could drain the part of the system prone to freeze. You would need two valves to isolate that section then repressurize the balance of the system. to keep it going
Any brand of cleaner will work, Fernox, Rhomar, Axiom, sentinel
If you don’t use an aerosol can you will need to pump it in.
The nice people here that do this for a living are suggesting 30-35% why would you want to go 50%?
Bob "hot rod" Rohr
trainer for Caleffi NA
Living the hydronic dream0 -
I am absolutely going to listen to the nice people here. They guy I spoke with said 50% and so far his is the only guy suggesting that. Why would I want a higher concentration of the expensive stuff that beats the crap out of the system? I don't. I am also considering pumping the stuff in myself with the help of my brother and the help of you guys.😁 Thank you so much!!!
Next step is I need to calculate how much to buy. Pointers?
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Just get a 5 gal bucket straight glycol.
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I would pump in 1 gallon of glycol, then 2 of water, keep doing it that way instead of pre blending too much if you don’t know the volume
As air vents out, fill with undiluted glycol to assure you keep the %
buy a refractometer and a stick type ph meter to check where you end up.Check ph every couple years keep it in the range the manufacturer recommends, you can add a ph booster if needed
In a clean system with good fill water, 10, 15, or more years is a reasonable life
Bob "hot rod" Rohr
trainer for Caleffi NA
Living the hydronic dream0 -
I hit up harbor freight for their 20% off coupon and got a 1/2 hp pump. I will make the hoses. My plan is to measure some piping and try to calculate an approximate amount and then order the glycol tonight or tomorrow. How do I determine what the boiler and 2 air handlers hold? Thank you so much for the help!!
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How about just getting a washing machine hose kit from home depot to connect the pump to boiler and then pump to one end dropped in the bucket? This kit:
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Something that is almost always overlooked when discussing Cryo-Tek 100 is the fact that it's only 55% concentration straight from the bucket. Cutting it 50/50 would put you at 27.5%, which is borderline (25%) grounds for bacterial growth. 30-35% is typical with 30% as an absolute minimum IMO, so you'd need to calculate your total system volume and then buy enough concentrate to premix that amount to your desired percentage, and then pump it in. Get yourself a refractometer to check when you're done, and you may need to make adjustments by draining some out and refilling with more concentrate as you'll never get all of the existing fluid out so it'll dilute your new stuff. 2 parts Cryo to 1 part water is roughly 36.5% so that's easy to premix and would likely get you pretty close.
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That is a very important piece of info. Thank you. I am trying to determine how much cryotek 100 to buy. Can someone advise and help me with the data below? Thanks!!!!!
3/4 inch piping for a modine garage heater - 172 ft
3/4 inch piping for hot water heater 24 ft
1 inch piping to basement air handler 60 ft
1 inch piping to attic air handler 75 ft
expansion tank - 2 gallons
Trianco boiler - online says it holds 5.1 gallons
Two 5 ton First co air handlers ?
one modine 40,000 hot dawg garage heater ?
Hot water heater ?
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I used an online calculator for type M pipe. My 130ft of 1 inch should hold 5.9 gallons and the 196ft of 3/4 holds 5.27. So, I think I am at about 18.5 gallons with the boiler, piping and expansion tank. I have no idea how much is in the water heater, garage heater and two 5 ton air handlers.
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196 feet of 3/4"=5.52 gallons
135 feet 1"=6.129 gallons
The air handlers are probably 1 gallon each if that.
Same for the Hot dawg
So with everything your at 23 gallons. Call it 24. I included 1 gallon for the water heater I am assuming it is an indirect coil.
If you go 2parts glycol to 1 part water like @GroundUp mentioned you would need 24 gallons x .666= 16 gallons of glycol.
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Thank you. Do you think I can get away with buying (3) 5 gallon buckets of this stuff or do I need to purchase that 4th 5 gallon bucket? Thank you so much!!!
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Buy 3 buckets. If your short you can get 1 gal containers. I prefer having extra on site.
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Thank you. So, I should order (3) 5 gallon buckets, pack of test strips, one can of the Sentinel x800rd rapid dose cleaner? Anything else I should order from supplyhouse.com. ? Thanks again.
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I would get 4 5gal buckets.
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https://www.noblecompanyonlinestore.com/product/154/noburst-100-5-gallons
It is always the best idea to follow the directions provided by the product you use. Here is just one example.
If you are not sure of the type or brand of non-toxic antifreeze that is in there now, purge/cycle it out, flushing each zone and the boiler completely with water, then add the new stuff as directed.
Be sure you use Non-Toxic.
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You certainly do not want to run out of glycol as you are filling. If you dilute the % to fill the system it will takes a lot more full strength glycol to bring it down to the proper protection. So you purge out the weak solution to add more glycol. That is $$ down the drain.
Order enough to assure you do this on the first try!
In a sealed container the glycol will last for future needs, leaks, repairs, etc.
Are you absolutely sure you need glycol? It brings a lot of cost and baggage along.
Bob "hot rod" Rohr
trainer for Caleffi NA
Living the hydronic dream0 -
Yeah, I need glycol. One air handler is in the attic in unconditioned space. Unless there is some other way to protect that air handler. I imagine if I had some sort of freeze monitor AND A GENERATOR for when the power goes out and I am not home, that could work.
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I have (4) 5 gallon buckets in the cart and the test strips. Should I buy the Sentinel rapid dose cleaner and if so, do I shoot that in while I have just about all water in the system? Run that for a day or two and then pump in the glycol? Thanks.
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I imagine I can inject the Sentinel cleaner in any one of these hose bib valves for the 3 zones and hot water heater? Or do I inject it in the hose bib at the bottom of the boiler? Can I pump the glycol in through any of the 4 as well? My thought was to use one of the two 1 inch copper pipes in the middle going to the 2 main heating zones. The left garage heater zone and right hot water heater use 3/4. Thanks!
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you also need to let the air out without loosing any glycol.
a picture further away would help
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I will get you that pic. Here is the pic of the boiler bib
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From a distance.
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Yes any of those hose connection ball valves will work to squirt the cleaner in.
Power off. Pump glycol in the very bottom boiler valve. Close all the ball valves below the zone valves. Manually lock open all zone valves.
This method fills the boiler, goes around the zones and purges from the valves below the zone valves. Do one zone at a time. You want the glycol to come back air free, even purge until the milky color goes away. It should come back looking just like it does in the bucket.
Bob "hot rod" Rohr
trainer for Caleffi NA
Living the hydronic dream0 -
I am a little uncertain about this Sentinel 800 rapid dose cleaner. It appears that you need to do a serious flush afterwards and use an inhibitor also. It seems to be considered aggressive. Can I simply skip this step? Is there something more gentle or is this product fine? In addition, supplyhouse.com has nobody that has rated this product. That kind of makes me nervous.
Edit: The more I read, the more it sounds like it needs to be cleaned first.
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The system cleaner is basically a strong detergent, nothing too aggressive. You need to drain the boiler to put glycol in, so the cleaner would be flushed out regardless.
The glycol has inhibitors in it.
If you were to use plain water you would add inhibitors, which are pretty similar chemicals to what is blended in the glycol.
If you read the instructions that come with any hydronic glycol the tell you to clean the system first. Failure to do this will pretty much ruin that expensive glycol right from the start.
Fernox, Rhomar and Axiom are common names in the same products if you want to look for a different brand that might have been rated.
I’m not sure how the average homeowner would know how to rate soap in the boiler? 🫣 The simple proof is if the water drains out dirty, brown, black, etc.
Bob "hot rod" Rohr
trainer for Caleffi NA
Living the hydronic dream0 -
I can't tell you how much I appreciate the help you guys are providing. The products have been ordered. I will go watch some vids of people injecting glycol. I'll review the process with my brother, who is going to assist, and we will likely proceed with this later in the week or over the weekend. Thanks again. My next question is regarding the air bleeder valve at the top of the piping in the attic. I will post a pic in a bit and the question. Thanks!!!
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Pre-mix it in a clean garbage can.
Once the system is partially filled run the circulators to mix with any water / glycol in the system. Adjust your concentration accordingly.
Its a long process, Dont rush it.
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So. I am rethinking my expansion tank installation as well. I installed a Extrol ex30. The friend who helped with this suggested buying an ex-30PRO next time. The PRO model specifically says ok for use with glycol. The other does not. But, AI says it is ok. It is also precharged at 15 psi and the regular is 12 psi. But, the other question is I can order a kit that had a bleeder valve set up like this. Do you suggest this upgrade or not needed?
https://www.supplyhouse.com/Amtrol-EX-3000-100-EX-30-Series-Combination-Package-4-4-Gallon
The above shows the regular extrol 30 and not the pro like this one.
https://www.supplyhouse.com/Amtrol-102-3-EX-30PRO-Extrol-Pro-Expansion-Tank-4-4-Gallon-Volume
This seems to be the extra device in the kit:
https://www.supplyhouse.com/Amtrol-443-1-1-Air-Purger-1-8-Threaded-Vent-125-PSI-Cast-Iron
https://www.supplyhouse.com/Amtrol-443-1-1-Air-Purger-1-8-Threaded-Vent-125-PSI-Cast-Iron
The next question is that I have these bleeders in two spots on the boiler and one in the attic. I have had a few people say that they hate the concept of one in the attic and that it can cause me more trouble than it is worth. Any thoughts on these bleeders and how will I be purging the air when I do the glycol? It sounds like the expansion tank kit with bleeder has something special to remove the air. Thoughts? See the pic below for the two bleeders I have on the boiler. THANKS!!!!
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I am hoping this link actually works.
https://www.supplyhouse.com/Amtrol-443-1-1-Air-Purger-1-8-Threaded-Vent-125-PSI-Cast-Iron
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I can't see enough of this component, it looks to be some sort of air purger?
If you did want to repipe you want a microbubble type air purger, not a cast iron ramp. The are much more efficient and no piping requirements like the cast iron type. They work much much better with glycol systems that don't give up air easily.
With an efficient air purger and manual valves to fill and purge you should not need any remote manual bleeders, anywhere except maybe cast iron radiators.
The Amtrol Pro is a plastic lined expansion tank, longer life expectancy, specifically designed for systems with non barrier plastic tube. A plain steel expansion works fine with glycol. The glycol has inhibitors to protect all the ferrous metals in the system.
When you are all finished put a 5 gallon bucket with lid, relief valve discharge tube goes into the bucket. Should the relief valve ever discharge, you capture the glycol solution.
Bob "hot rod" Rohr
trainer for Caleffi NA
Living the hydronic dream0
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