Welcome! Here are the website rules, as well as some tips for using this forum.
Need to contact us? Visit https://heatinghelp.com/contact-us/.
Click here to Find a Contractor in your area.
If our community has helped you, please consider making a contribution to support this website. Thanks!

Electric steam

Options
Haloyloy770
Haloyloy770 Member Posts: 24

Hi all, solar panels are coming “in drones” here in NJ, and I am one that also got solar panels installed with storage batteries, the way I understood it works is I pay up to a fixed price (amount of electricity used) and the rest of electricity that’s not used gets sold to the grid


Now I’m a big fan of steam heating, my current system is a one pipe system, i currently have the Megasteam MST396 boiler, I got it with oil running, but I converted it to gas


My question is, is there an electric steam boiler that I would be able to “swap out”?, I do believe that this current boiler is oversized, so most probably I will have to downsize


My thinking of switching is, if (in truth) I only pay up to a certain amount, then why not switch to electric 😀

Comments

  • pecmsg
    pecmsg Member Posts: 6,761

    You can run the gas boiler off the batteries.

    Straight electric boiler you'll need a huge battery backup system. No practical.

  • Jamie Hall
    Jamie Hall Member Posts: 26,807

    This. One of the more common problems with solar PV is that people tend to wildly overestimate the power and energy they can get out of a panel system And then compound the problem by not adding up how much power and energy it take to heat a space.

    I'll just toss a few number out here… A good modern state of the art solar panel can be expected to deliver around 200 watts per square meter of area in full sun. But… the sun doesn't always shine, particularly in the northeast in the winter, so a not half bad starting point is to assume that you can get that power output for, on the averabe, 3 hours per day. So 600 watt-hours per day.

    And you really need to stay warm for three cloudy days in a row.

    Now take a moderately sized hourse and suppose that it's heating load is around 70000 BTUh — 24 hours per day. That's around 20 KE, or around 480 KWh per day. For our 3 clouding days, that means your batteries need to store around 1.5 megawatts. And to recharge them you need around 800 square meters of solar panel…

    Big system. really big bucks for the batteries… (a Tesla Poerwall is around 15 KW-hours, and runs around 10 grand each… do the math).

    Br. Jamie, osb
    Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England
  • EBEBRATT-Ed
    EBEBRATT-Ed Member Posts: 19,487

    You have a good?? boiler although its a Burnham LOL. Keep it. No payback changing it.

    The solar will knock down the electric bill but I doubt the solar input will be more than an electric boiler will use. Or even a good part of it.

  • Haloyloy770
    Haloyloy770 Member Posts: 24
    edited November 30

    So the solar system was installed about a month ago, we’re still waiting for inspections before “power on day”, so for this year (and might even for the future) not be relevant

    Now I know that they installed 2 Tesla batteries, I’m going to ask them what is the “final” specs of the system once it was installed (I know there was a few changes along the way)

    it looks like these are the specs of the solar system installed

    Please note the specs in white are what was originally quoted, and in blue is what was actually installed

    So with this system is it “powerful” enough to “entertain” a thought to maybe switch to a electric steam boiler?

  • dabrakeman
    dabrakeman Member Posts: 866

    Extrapolating from @Jamie Hall 's math that would be on average producing about 17.3kwh per day so it would take you about a month to store up enough energy to heat your home for one day.

  • Jamie Hall
    Jamie Hall Member Posts: 26,807
    Br. Jamie, osb
    Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England
    bburd
  • Haloyloy770
    Haloyloy770 Member Posts: 24

    Gotcha all

    Like I said it was just a thought 😃


    Let me ask will such a system (solar) work for a forced hot water system?

  • Jamie Hall
    Jamie Hall Member Posts: 26,807

    You still have the basic problem of storing enough energy to carry you when the sun isn't shining, and harvesting enough power to fill that storage.

    However.

    The problem is much reduced, as with low to medium temperature hot water you do have the opportunity to use an air to water or water to water heat pump. This will reduce the energy required by a factor of somewhere around 3 — the COP or the overall heat pump system — which makes it go from really unfeasible to remotely feasible with enough invested in the storage and solar array.

    It is still not remotely cost effective — but at least it isn't eye-popping…

    Br. Jamie, osb
    Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England
  • Haloyloy770
    Haloyloy770 Member Posts: 24

    Gotcha

    Thank you

    On a different note, i keep on hearing/reading about if you put the steam system into a vacuum, then you can get steam with much less temperature

    Can someone please point me to a discussion where it was discussed in the past?

    Or is such a thing even possible to do with a one pipe system?

  • Jamie Hall
    Jamie Hall Member Posts: 26,807

    Not sure where there has been a discussion — but the overall topic of operating a steam system in a vacuum does come up from time to time.

    And it is quite true — the boiling point of water changes, as you would expect, with absolute pressure, so depending on how deep the vacuum is you can run significantly lower temperatures.

    There are a couple of problems which kind of complicate things. The first is achieving a vacuum in the first place. In the bad old days we kind of did that in a backwards way: the boiler was brought up to steam and the air allowed to vent out of the system — but these weren't garden variety of vents. Rather, they sealed to hold a vacuum. So as the fire was allowed to die down (we're looking at coal here) the system naturally went into a vacuum and allowed prolonged operation at rather low temperatures. Vacuum type vents are still available — but are pricey. Some folks have experimented with adding check valves to regular vents to accomplish the same purpose. These were generally two pipe systems running on very small differential pressures (what are called vapour systems), but the same principle could be applied to one pipe systems — with the need for the specialized vents or check valves on every radiator.

    One can also have systems which have mechanically induced vacuum. This adds a good bit of complexity to the system, particularly if the system isn't perfectly vacuum tight.

    Br. Jamie, osb
    Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England
    tarik
  • mattmia2
    mattmia2 Member Posts: 15,495

    you are looking at the design day, not the average so you could probably do mild days with electric resistance but you aren't heating the house off of solar using steam. maybe set up some electric resistance heat to burn off the excess production when you are making more than you can use or store.

  • DCContrarian
    DCContrarian Member Posts: 1,361

    I don't see any point in using steam to distribute heat through the house if you're using electricity to create the heat, you may as well bring the electricity where it's needed and create the heat there.

    The problem with solar in general is that it produces the most when you need it least and the least when you need it most. There's no good way to store it on a residential level, there are barely good ways to store it on an industrial level although they're getting better. If your utility offers net metering you can let them worry about storing it.

    If you produce more electricity than you use, some utilities will pay you cash and some just give you a credit against future use. If solar makes economic sense for you in most cases the best deal is to take the cash if it's offered. If cash isn't offered then you want to use as much of the electricity as you can to avoid having unusable credits.

    Note that net metering is fundamentally economically unsustainable, if everyone had a zero electricity bill the power company would go out of business. So as you plan your installation keep in mind that at some point the net metering is not going to be as generous. Most likely you'll have to pay something for use of the grid in the future.

  • tarik
    tarik Member Posts: 1

    I always daydream about converting my single pipe system oil-fired system to heat pump "fired" with assistance from a mechanically-induced vacuum.

  • Jamie Hall
    Jamie Hall Member Posts: 26,807

    That's OK, @tarik . I dream about a two stage system — a more or less conventional air to water heat pump first stage, and a high temperature second stage heat pump using water/steam as the refrigerant. Nothing wrong with the physics… in theory…

    Br. Jamie, osb
    Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England
  • DCContrarian
    DCContrarian Member Posts: 1,361

    The vacuum would allow steam to operate at a lower temperature, which is good for heat pumps. The downside is that the output of a radiator is determined by its surface temperature, so the radiators might end up being undersized.