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Makeup water causing boiler failure due to thermal shock

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  • ethicalpaul
    ethicalpaul Member Posts: 7,981

    thanks, I meant to put the word “residential” in my original post!

    NJ Steam Homeowner.
    Free NJ and remote steam advice: https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/new-jersey-steam-help/
    See my sight glass boiler videos: https://bit.ly/3sZW1el

  • STEAM DOCTOR
    STEAM DOCTOR Member Posts: 2,483

    For what it's worth.... Part of my regular maintenance, is to put 8-way into the boiler. Fire boiler until it steams. Shut off. Fire on and off to keep boiler hot. For approx half hour. Drain boiler completely down. Fill, with manual valve. Full speed. Until boiler is full. With cold water. Drain and fill, drain and fill...until water is clean. Fill back up and fire.

    ethicalpaul
  • fentonc
    fentonc Member Posts: 320
    1. A house I was renting had a steam boiler crack. The LWCO was broken, the boiler steamed itself dry, and then returning condensate caused it to crack when it met the red-hot boiler.
    2. As part of my on-going experiments in improving (hydronic) boiler efficiency, I've settled on a scheme that immediately opens all of the zones in the house to do a 'thermal purge' cycle when the last zone is done calling for heat. This effectively means dumping a lot of cold water into a hot CI boiler, and it can drop the temperature from (up to) 180F down to 65F or so in a few minutes. I haven't noticed any detrimental side effects though, and the temperature change seems pretty gradual, as the cold water is mixing with the last-active hot water loop (plus the water + thermal mass of the boiler itself).

    I'll definitely report back if I crack my boiler in half this winter!

    ethicalpaul
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 17,019

    If anything I'm amazed at all the comments about dry fired boilers.

    Single pipe 392sqft system with an EG-40 rated for 325sqft and it's silent and balanced at all times.

    ethicalpaulGGross
  • ethicalpaul
    ethicalpaul Member Posts: 7,981

    ok good data there! But I didn’t even know you had a steam boiler!

    Now I have to ask, why do you drain it? It should be staying clean with 8-way in it even with no draining

    NJ Steam Homeowner.
    Free NJ and remote steam advice: https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/new-jersey-steam-help/
    See my sight glass boiler videos: https://bit.ly/3sZW1el

  • ethicalpaul
    ethicalpaul Member Posts: 7,981

    I’m definitely not doubting your story, but condensate returns at a steady rate. It can’t really get dry until all the water is gone. Is it possible that makeup water was added after it was dry and HOT?

    NJ Steam Homeowner.
    Free NJ and remote steam advice: https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/new-jersey-steam-help/
    See my sight glass boiler videos: https://bit.ly/3sZW1el

  • mattmia2
    mattmia2 Member Posts: 15,067

    LWCOs are only required on hot water boilers if they have emitters below the boiler in most jurisdictions, if there is no water in the boiler sometimes the aquastat doesn't see the temp of the part near the burner and sometimes gas valves stick on, you combine that with another failure like the pvr is stuck closed or someone keeps the feed to the prv off because they don't want a flood if a hydronic pipe breaks and suddenly you have a dry fire event. The same sort of things can happen with a warm air furnace.

  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 17,019

    So all of the fear with Hartford loops etc on steam boilers yet hot water doesn't have it and doesn't even have a lwco?

    Single pipe 392sqft system with an EG-40 rated for 325sqft and it's silent and balanced at all times.

    ethicalpaul
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 26,254

    analysis paralysis😯

    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
  • fentonc
    fentonc Member Posts: 320

    @ethicalpaul - I don't actually know. This was before I got interested in home heating, it was a poorly maintained rental, and I was vaguely recalling that's what the plumber told us (over a decade ago). I think we just came home from work and noticed the house wasn't heating. I don't recall the basement flooding in the same incident.

    ethicalpaul
  • STEAM DOCTOR
    STEAM DOCTOR Member Posts: 2,483
    edited November 21

    I do this on every steam boiler that I am service. Just for clarity, I only service residential. Cleaning is part of maintenance. The eight way will break down the sludge. Repeated draining remove the sludge. Adding eight way after the fact, will greatly reduce the sludge going forward.

    ethicalpaul
  • mattmia2
    mattmia2 Member Posts: 15,067

    you could have had something going on with pressure that was keeping the water from returning to the boiler then you shut down the burner and as it cooled the pressure decreased and the stacked up condensate rushed in to the boiler.

  • mattmia2
    mattmia2 Member Posts: 15,067

    there was like a 10 page discussion on hartford loops that I didn't read but the main upshot is that it is largely leftover from solid fuel fired boilers where stopping the fire is difficult to do quickly if the water runs out of the boiler.

  • EBEBRATT-Ed
    EBEBRATT-Ed Member Posts: 19,172

    @retiredguy

    Smith (if there still in business) the last 28s I did which was about 8 years ago they stopped using the blend pump as far as I know. They now provide a "return temperature stabilizer". It is a perforated tube of expanded stainless steel with I think a flange on one end. It goes in the 6" tapping in the back section and goes through the top nipple port and runs the length of the boiler. The return water is now piped to the 6" tapping. The return water flows through the "stabilizer" to all sections so I guess it puts the back section under less thermal shock

    mattmia2
  • New England SteamWorks
    New England SteamWorks Member Posts: 1,529

    No.

    New England SteamWorks
    Service, Installation, & Restoration of Steam Heating Systems
    newenglandsteamworks.com
    ethicalpaul
  • GGross
    GGross Member Posts: 1,690

    We are definitely required to install LWCO or a flow switch safety on all boilers in my county, residential and commercial. Technically the entire state of michigan has to but local inspectors are allowed to interpret the code however they please.

    ChrisJ