Boiler Additive?
The guy that installed the floor heat used non O2 barrier pex. No idea if he didn't know, or because it was $.01 cheaper a foot… given other work… I have to wonder.
It's there, not like I can fix it without tearing up the whole floor, has been working for 10 years, though on boiler #2. First one they believe melted down from the gas company adjusting the regulator and setting the pressure way too high.
Wall hung combi boiler… Vesta VRC. Grundfos 3 speed pump. Boiler is stainless, pump is regular unit, cheap enough that I can replace every few years I suppose.
Should I be doing anything special? Like treating the water?
Comments
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The thing about oxygen ingress through Pex is it is temperature related. The non barrier tube that was used in 180 fin tube systems would corrode ferrous components quickly. Usually the expansion tanks failed first, followed by pump bodies plugging up, threaded nippled detoriating.
This lead the expansion tank manufactures to make “radiant” system tanks, currently called the Extrol pro. A lined steel tank.
Boilers running 120 didn’t have as much of a problem, or as often.
Certainly no harm in using a hydronic treatment, it does multiple tasks. Oxygen scavenging, ph buffer, film provider, lubricates bushings and valves
If you go that route, buy the complete kit that includes test strips.
One example
Bob "hot rod" Rohr
trainer for Caleffi NA
Living the hydronic dream1 -
The next time you need to swap the pump, get a stainless steel or bronze version of that pump. It will last as long as the boiler. Also swap the iron or steel flanges (if that is what you have) with bronze, brass or SS flanges.
Edward Young Retired
After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?
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The CDA talks about the relative area effect. The less ferrous metals the greater the corrosion of the less nobel.
An example they used.
A ship hull built of copper with iron rivets. The rivets would corrode quickly.
Where as a iron hull with copper rivets, the hull would not see the rapid corrosion.
My thought is a hydronic system all non ferrous except maybe a steel expansion tank. All the potential corrosion happens in the tank.
But for the cost and simplicity of an inhibitor, what do you have to lose?
I think todays systems with so many different metals makes this a more critical issue.
We see steel, iron, brass and alloys, stainless, maybe multiple grades, aluminum alloys in some case, zinc, and copper. These all fall on different locations on the galvanic series tables. Aluminum and copper for example.
Or aluminum and gold, like the toilets and piping upgrades at the White House :)
Back in the day we had steel, iron and copper in the hydronic systems.
Wood and lead water mains😲
Bob "hot rod" Rohr
trainer for Caleffi NA
Living the hydronic dream1 -
I had checked into it when I replaced the circulator, but the stainless versions are quite expensive. Regular 3 speed Grundfos was about $120 and the stainless equivalent was over $400.
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Do you know of a product that is similar but not hard to find? That seems to not really be available. They have a Fernox F1 Protector, 500ml bottle that is about $70, ship time about 1 month, on Amazon.
A few options for wood boiler protector that will ship. Like Pro Tech 300. a gallon is $70, would get it in 4 days.
I might be able to source something at Homes Depot or Lowes.
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Trying to quote the Fernox info, but it's not working…
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Where you at?
Low Energy (taklesswaterheaters.com) is in Denver
Thomas Sommerville back east
E-bay everywhere.
Rhomar, Axiom, Adey have similar kits
Bob "hot rod" Rohr
trainer for Caleffi NA
Living the hydronic dream0 -
Ok so you buy the lower price pump 4 times over the life of the boiler, and then you replace the boiler and replace the pump 4 more times. In the next 30 years you buy 8 iron pumps for a total of $120.00 in todays dollars times 8 = $960.00. But we all know that the pumps will get more expensive every time you get a new one. Or you buy a SS pump for $400 and it will last the life of two boilers. The economy planned failure is a difficult choice when it comes to getting the expensive one once. Sometimes you have to decide if that is the best choice with all that debris from each failed pump needing to be addressed over the life of the tubing system.
I made the mistake of replacing a stainless steel boiler with a cast iron Boiler that was connected to non barrier tubing. Hear is that comment.
What do you do when you make a mistake like that? You do what you need to do and eat the cost of making it right.
Edward Young Retired
After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?
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Wasilla, Alaska.
None of those in the pics will ship to me. Seems like that product is from the UK. I'd have to think it's nothing special that another brand like I mentioned wouldn't do similar? I mean a boiler is a boiler as far as water is concerned, right?
I suppose I could put glycol in it, but I wouldn't have a reason to for freeze protection. Building has to stay warm for all the plumbing.
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Current circulator is a few years old. The one before I think was defective, it was maybe a year or so old and it started rattling. The inside of it looked brand new.
It was still working, but since I'm gone weeks at a time, I didn't want to chance it.
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I certainly would hope this boiler lasts 30 years at least. Won't have to buy any pumps from corrosion if I put inhibitor and keep up on it, same way wood boilers do, at least that's the idea.
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Axiom is another brand.
It’s rep is Pac-West, they have several people in Alaska, I believe Mitch is in Wasilla. They have quite a few hydronic lines including Caleffi. He would know where to find it in Alaska
Axiom is in Western Canada.
Bob "hot rod" Rohr
trainer for Caleffi NA
Living the hydronic dream0 -
That address is the UPS store next to Lowes. There's definitely no HVAC place in that building. I'm just going to get a gallon of wood boiler inhibitor off the Amazon for $70, done chasing down special "elixirs" that I need to go through all sorts of headaches to try and buy.
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Odd that Pacific Plumbing, Wasilla shows it on their website.
My Fernox contact, national sales manager, tells me Keller, Pacific and Ferguson have inventory in Alaska.
Fernox US is in Pennsylvania by the way.
Bob "hot rod" Rohr
trainer for Caleffi NA
Living the hydronic dream0 -
Do they allow regular people in at those places even? Pacific makes me have a commercial account, which makes no sense when I'd maybe go there 1 time.
I bought a culvert at Ferguson about 15 years ago, had to buy it under a friend's work account.
Either way, the stuff off the Amazon, Pro Tech 300, is due in on Wednesday or Thrudsay.
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I've never seen a wholesaler that would not do a cash sale to anyone that walked in?
But it could be their policy that they only sell if you have an account.
Most of the big name wholesalers have online sales, I don't know that you need an account to buy online?
Many suppliers, and some manufacturers have online, E-bay, and Amazon accounts these days.
The address and phone number I sent you was for the Fernox rep not a wholesaler. I'm pretty sure he would have hooked you up.
Regardless, you are working it out.
Bob "hot rod" Rohr
trainer for Caleffi NA
Living the hydronic dream0 -
I had left a msg at that number but didn't get anything back, at least that I can find. Figured I could just stop in, but that address is the UPS store, so it's just a mailing address to a box I think.
Mostly I didn't want something that's tough/a hassle to get. I will need to break down the piping for this setup at some point to add a heat exchanger for an outdoor boiler, plus maybe moving the boiler… it may end up in the way of a wall for the bathroom expansion, not sure. So would like be able to just drain it vs trying to capture the boiler water and trying to reuse it.
The ProTech 300 I got will last a long time and I'll have some to use in the outdoor boiler too. As far as I can tell it's fine to use, it's marketed for wood boilers, but it says it's good for steel, copper, stainless, brass, and can be mixed in with antifreeze. A gallon is good for 300 gallons, so it'll last a while. My system is maybe 15 gallons Id guess so it'll need like 6 oz.
All the sources I found online for anything marketed specific to wall hung units wouldn't ship to AK or was expensive (like doubled the purchase price expensive)
As far as the commercial places, I ran into it a few years ago trying to buy a replacement water heater. It was an indirect unit and either they wouldn't sell it to me or marked it up to crazy prices. I ended up having a plumber install a new one. His price for the water heater and install was less than I could buy the water heater at the same place he got it.
I tend to just go to Homes Depot or Lowes and avoid the knock 4 times, what's the password and need a secret handshake to buy some fittings hahaha
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those wood boiler chemicals are usually two ingredients , they work well in open systems as you need to add some on a regular basis
I know the Rhomar product has about 20 ingredients, hence the cost difference.
If there is any aluminum components in the system you need a specific inhibitor
Your manual should indicate the water quality spec, stainless steel boilers have some unique requirements as far as chlorides
The fill water is as important as the conditioner
Bob "hot rod" Rohr
trainer for Caleffi NA
Living the hydronic dream0 -
Nothing in the manual talks about water quality that I'm seeing. No aluminum that I know of.
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