Am I blind? Not seeing the gas shut-off valve.
I turned off the power to my NTVN-199 gas boiler and removed the front panel according to the instructions on page 2 of the manual. But when I got to the part where you shut off the gas valve, I was unable to locate it. Here's the drawing of it from the manual:
Apparently I'm blind now. Why am I not seeing anything that looks like that in there? Does it look completely different than the drawing? Is it actually located somewhere outside the panel instead?
This is what I see when I open the panel:
Comments
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Th valve should have been field installed and should be external to the boiler in the gas line to the boiler.
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Follow the gas-line; typically ran with black pipe under the boiler.
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Why do you want to shut the gas off to the boiler?
Bob Boan
You can choose to do what you want, but you cannot choose the consequences.
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they are trying to follow the shut off the gas and wait 5 minutes in the lighting instructions thali almost no one does.
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The only shut-off valve that I can find is the Master Shut-off valve. Is that what I'm looking for? Or is the manual referring to another valve? Because the Master Shut-off valve looks completely different from the one drawn in the manual, and why would NTI be telling people to open the panel first before shutting off the gas if the valve isn't inside the panel?
Master shut-off valve:
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as far as i can tell there is no space inside for a field installed manual valve. It looks like there is factory installed tubing from the gas inlet on the bottom to the automatic gas valve.
that is likely boilerplate they bought from someone that has been the same for 40 years and is for conventional boilers with a manual knob on the automatic gas valve.
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I consider the shutoff just past the meter to be the master shutoff. Valve come in many types and can be rated for multiple purpose. Lots of gas valve have small wing type shutoff. The on you have is common across water and gas.
Do you have any other gas appliances in the house? Does that line split off or go just to boiler?0 -
There are no other gas appliances besides the indirect water heater they installed at the same time.
I looked again, outside and below the panel, along the gas line. Still don't see anything on the gas line resembling a valve.
Underneath:
Behind it, low down:
Behind it, wider view:
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each appliance requires an approved shut off valve
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Follow this line back to the meter. If you don't see a shutoff valve, then the valve at your meter will be the shutoff. There should have been one at the boiler.
8.33 lbs./gal. x 60 min./hr. x 20°ΔT = 10,000 BTU's/hour
Two btu per sq ft for degree difference for a slab
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Isn't the one in the third picture right above the boiler? That is the one to use.
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The meter is outside though, on the sidewalk. If there's something there that anybody walking by can manipulate easily, I'm surprised.
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So it's the Master Gas Shut-off that I use? The manual isn't referring to another valve that looks like the drawing? I can't believe they're publishing manuals with inaccurate information regarding safety precautions and procedures.
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I can’t believe they didn’t install a valve at the equipment!
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yes. Read this again….
”Valve come in many types and can be rated for multiple purpose. Lots of gas valve have small wing type shutoff. The one you have is common across water and gas.”
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The manual can not know what your installer uses, there are actually some gas valves that look like the one in the illustration but that illustration was not to show you what valve the installer should use but to tell you that the handle that is parallel with the pipe is ON and the handle that is perpendicular to the pipe is OFF.
If they needed to show you exactly every possible gas valve they would need a 4 page book to list the 300 most common gas valves that you might have. And in your case, if it was not in the 300 plus pictures, you would be in the same place asking the same question. A little common sense is supposed to be used when reading the instructions.
Everyone of these valves are used to shut off gas. Some are bigger to shut off gas to bigger things, others are smaller to turn of gas to smaller things.
The installer chose to use this valve to shut off gas to your equipment. And I don't think that the installer could do a better job of telling you that this is your gas shut off valve… I mean it says "Master GAS SHUT-OFF" on the tag attached to the valve.
I hope this helps.
Edward Young Retired
After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?
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This is something I made for you so you don't get sidetacked in the future. Print this and tape it over the incorrectly illustrated instructions neat the boiler and another for the instruction manual.
Edward Young Retired
After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?
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Thank you Ed. I'm just trying to do everything to the letter, according to the correct procedures, without guessing "oh, maybe it's this other thing instead", or "well I don't see this thing shown in the manual, so maybe I don't have to shut the gas off, because maybe it doesn't apply if there isn't a shut-off valve inside the unit." because guessing wrong could be fatal. They tell you to remove the panel cover and the next step is to turn off the gas - clearly implying the gas shut-off valve is inside the unit. They don't have any further instructions for doing anything inside the unit once the cover is removed, therefore, logically, they're telling people to remove the cover in order to gain access the gas shut-off valve. So I'm being as careful as possible. Since it seems there is no other gas shut-off valve installed, and you have explained why there isn't, I will use the one that is clearly marked and visible.
And thanks for the edit.0 -
the valve should be outside the cabinet!
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Many say you can't put valves or unions inside a cabinet. I have yet to see that in any code. Around here you will probably find 50% of the unions inside and 50% outside.
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A) To become familiar with the procedure and B) because I want to inspect a circulator pump whose bearing assembly is making loud noises and doesn't seem to be working and I don't want to do that while the system is powered on and gas is still being fed into the boiler. There's no separate switch for that circulator, so I would have to shut the power off to most of the circulators to work on it, and I assume that would be unsafe while the boiler is operating. Also, there are 2 other circulators that may or may not be working properly that I also want to take apart and look at.
Should I start a new post about that under one of the other forum categories, or can I ask about it here?0 -
Post it here but take some pictures of the whole install first, try to show as much as possible to give everyone a bit to work from to start. frustrating as some of this may be keep in mind first that a boiler SYSTEM is not just an appliance you bought. there are things that must be installed in the field. the gas line being one of those things, must be sized and built in the field. you should have an appliance gas valve to the unit, a union and dirt leg, those components need to be accessible and outside of the cabinet. This may be required by local code (almost definitely), but more importantly its just smart. The valve so you can shut off gas to just the appliance, a union, so you can take apart the gas line to that unit (changeouts etc) and the dirt leg just in case junk is in the gas line, it should collect in the dirt leg so it doesn't end up in the gas valve. You may see on larger units a separate shutoff inside the cabinet, especially on a dual gas valve unit, but even then you still must have a valve outside the cabinet, union and dirt leg (and its smart!)
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They do have the dirt leg, you can see it in the pictures although it is largely a holdover from manufactured gas which sometimes had a lot of moisture in it. the valve is definitely required in the instructions as well as by most codes.
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Shutting the gas off is not necessary to work on a circulator. In fact, it may cause the boiler to lock out on an error code. Just turn the boiler off.
Bob Boan
You can choose to do what you want, but you cannot choose the consequences.1
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