Cheap, Easy, And Invisible DIY Solar Thermal?

I'm planning to build a home in northern Arizona—the warmer part, probably. It's a climate where winter highs might regularly reach the 50's (F), but winter lows can get cold enough for a great deal of snow on occasion. I think the cold-but-not-too-cold winter weather should make it perfect for solar thermal.
A while back someone here (sorry, it's been a bit and I've forgotten who!) recommended putting coils of black PEX on the roof to use as a cheap solar panel. I'm thinking of doing something like that, but hopefully even cheaper: I want to put the PEX under the roof (but touching it), and use the metal roof itself as the solar collector. This would save me some money on the PEX, and it would look nicer, I think.
Design Constraints
PEX Heat Tolerance
The primary difficulty with a system like this, as I understand it, is that PEX doesn't like temperatures over 180 F. And while a roof may not get more than 100 degrees F above ambient temperature, in my neck of the woods the record highs thus far have all been around 105 F—and presumably they will only get hotter. 100 degrees hotter than 110 degrees F is 210 degrees F which sounds like it would be too hot for the PEX.
Of course metal pipe is another option—and probably it would do better with the heat, in spite of the need for connections where leaks might occur—but I've not found a kind of metal pipe that seems sufficiently cheap. (I'm curious if folks think they know of one, though). Also there is the issue of corrosion with dissimilar metals, which would require some kind of barrier between the two metals…which, given that the roof will move around a bit, would need to be quite robust and short of doing something expensive like having a copper roof with copper pipes under it I'm just frankly not sure how to couple metal pipes to a metal roof without also severely limiting the heat transfer between the roof and the pipes.
Thus the PEX.
From what I have read PEX is usually happiest if temperatures stay below 180 F. However this document from plasticpipe.org seems to be saying that there are PEX pipes made for higher heat applications. Class 5, meant for high temperature radiators, seems to be the most robust vs high temperatures, though Class 4, meant for underfloor heating and lower temperature radiators seems pretty decent as well. Both are rated to accommodate 100 hours of temperatures of 212 F within their expected 50 year lifespan, and Class 5 is expected to withstand a cumulative year at 194 F, and 10 years at 176.
Roof Temperature
I've yet to find a really good resource on exactly how much hotter than ambient a dark roof will get when incidence is low. This blog (?) lists a few figures, with the hottest being dark asphalt which gets 75-105 F over ambient temperatures. I've seen other people mention 100 degrees F as a theoretical maximum. I'd like this number to be more firm (anyone have experience here?) but for now I'll assuming that when incidence is very low and the sky is clear, a dark metal roof will be 105 degrees above ambient.
Roof Tilt
One thing that may help reduce the times when the PEX gets too hot would be a decently tilted roof. This is only really practical at some more central latitudes where the sun is nearly overhead in the summer—and Arizona should qualify nicely. A south facing roof tilted at about 55 degrees should reduce solar intensity by 28% at the solstice and 19% on August 10*. One of the record heat days in my town was August 1, though all the others were June or July, and presumably August will be more into the mix on any year the Monsoon fails, which could happen more. Still, a 19% reduction in solar intensity in the summer may give me the wiggle room I need. 19% less intensity should mean that rather than heating the roof to 105 degrees above ambient, August sun will only heat it to 85 degrees F above ambient, which on a worst-case-scenario day when the August temperature is 110 F (Five degrees higher than the current record high), would mean the roof would be 190-195 F for about three hours, which should be no trouble for Class 5 PEX.
*This according to some trigonometry and a formula I found for solar intensity loss due to changes in incidence. See this thread for … well I didn't get to detailed, but a bit more than here.
Uncertainties
As I mentioned above, there are a few parts of this plan that rely on less-than-verified fact.
How much hotter than ambient will the hottest metal roof I can find get? I wonder if companies marketing metal roofs for northern climates have these numbers.
How do I make sure the metal will touch enough of the PEX for heat exchange to happen? I am a bit leery of tapes holding up for the 50 or so years I'm designing the system for (ideally this should work for as long as the roof does). Seemingly there are forces holding standing seam metal roofs down and squishing the pex a bit so I would hope it would work but…it might require something else to hold it flush and I'm not sure what that would be.
Pros
-It's cheap! If it works.
-PEX under a metal roof is invisible. Not that I mind looking peculiar but… as far as resale value goes, it is probably better to have it invisible.
-It's also a bit more fire-safe than having panels on the roof, I think.
Cons
-Compared to glazed solar thermal panels it won't heat as well in the winter. I'm hoping that this won't be a big deal in this climate—I still need to run RETScreen and see—but it may be a concern.
-Roof installers probably haven't done anything like this before, and there's some chance it could void the warranty.
-Roof penetrations may be a bit tricky. The devil is in the details here, but ideally this system would not penetrate the roofing membrane at all, or failing that, it would need to be taped in a way similar to that of windows…and that tape would need to tolerate these higher temperatures.
Summary
So that's the idea. I'm very curious to hear feedback from folks. I've not gotten into how I'd store this heat—I'm thinking a large low-heat heat bank for space heating, which should maximize the amount of heat the system can provide.
It seems like a simple way to save a lot of money over the life of the home…so simple that I'm not really clear why more people aren't doing it. But that said, I know that 95% of the time there's a reason people aren't doing the thing I've just thought of. I mean, I can't be the first person to play with an idea like this. So I'm curious if there's some glaring issue with my plan, or more concerns that would need to be addressed.
Thank you all in advance for your help!
Comments
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Check out builditsolar.com.
They have some tried and true ideas.
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we ill the netsl toofing be over plywoid or purlins? How will you insulate the tube bundle?
Did you look into soft aluminum tubing.
The concept will work, no doubt, but low winter performance
I put rubber Heatway radiant tube under a metal roof overhang once for snow and ice dam melting.
There are also PV collectors with a thermal collector mounted on the back. Sun Drum is one brand it into a heat pump fir supplying power and a thermal component
Bob "hot rod" Rohr
trainer for Caleffi NA
Living the hydronic dream0 -
Go full passive. It's called well thought windows and and insulation and building mass.
If you're not keen on the passive solar houses which Bill Shurcliff and Norman Suanders and I were doing now some 60 years ago in New England, which still are working well — but have no sizzle, no pipes, no collectors, no pumps, no fancy valve systems (which was and remains a problem — people can't believe they work since they look verry ordinary) go visit Acoma Pueblo ("Sky City") in New Mexico. These folks had it figure out 1500 years ago.
But I'm tired of preaching passive solar, so…
Br. Jamie, osb
Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England2 -
The way to think about a solar collector is not how hot it gets, but how much heat it collects. They're not the same thing, and the difference is important. The DIY solar world is full of collectors that got plenty hot but didn't deliver much heat.
I agree with Jamie that passive solar is probably going to be more effective. The biggest mistake you can make though is to assume it will somehow just work, it needs to be engineered. That means doing year-round energy modeling. I'd recommend software like BeOpt to get you started. The two big drawbacks of passive solar are first that there's no way to turn it off, you have to worry about preventing overheating. The second is that the amount of sun you get doesn't line up with the seasons. The day where the sun is lowest in the sky is December 21, the coldest day of the winter is typically six weeks later on February 1. On February 1 the sun is going to take the same path through the sky as on November 7, which is typically a much warmer day. September 21 — which is cooling season where I live — has the same sun angle as March 21, which is heating season.
Passive solar advocates will say, "position overhangs so that they block the sun in the summer and allow the sun in during the winter." When you start doing the math you'll realize that it's impossible to do this completely.
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Oh dear me yes. Overheating with passive it a major problem — and is the reason that all of out designs all the way back to the beginning, weren't strictly passive: they all had low speed blowers and some ductwork (not a whole lot, but some) — and a way to dump excess heat. We never had a problem with not enough heat to keep things very pleasant, even in some pretty miserable runs of weather (New England can do that to you!), but without a way to dump heat? Trouble!
Br. Jamie, osb
Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England0 -
The first thing I thought of when I read your original idea is "Too Hot? Just purge some of that heat". If there is a High Limit temperature for that tubing, you can have a ventilation system operate to dump some of that "overheating" even if it just a damper motor that will allow thermal air flow to reduce the roof temperature.
Set the solar roof to the best angle for winter collection and open the dampers in the very hot months to keep the roof from getting 100% of the solar temperature by venting ambient air under the metal roof component. You could also pump cooler water thru the PEX when you are not collecting heat in the summer by dumping that heat into a closed loop geothermal well or field to cool off the tubing
The damper can be a single rod extended thru the roof joists with a pulley or linkage arm at one end, then attach sheetmetal dampers on that rod to fit between the roof joist spaces. One damper motor can move both linkages to open and close the dampers at the top and the bottom of all the joist spaces with PEX tubing
Edward Young Retired
After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?
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There are also thermal actuators (wax motors) for dampers for overheat made for greenhouses and stock barns which have severe overheating problems. Might look into those. No wires, no power required.
Br. Jamie, osb
Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England1 -
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My hope was (and is) to use radiant floor cooling for that. In the summer I'd store cool from night air in the heat/cool bank (using the same pex-in-roof setup to pump cool in the house). I might or might not need a heat pump as well to really make it work—some of the nights might only get down to the 70's in the summer, though I think mostly they are a bit cooler.
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I would do purlins if I could, but so far all of the "how to put together a roof" drawing use plywood. I'm not too fussed either way, though. I would put insulation directly below the metal roof (so the PEX would be sandwiched between). I think in cases like this it would need to be fairly firm rockwool and only…and here I need to find out what the roof manufacturers recommend…but I think something like only an inch or inch and a half thick. Obviously there would be more insulation under the roof deck. I've seen diagrams where there are two layers of plywood, the lower to put the insulation on top of and the upper to attach the roofing to so that you can have a good 6-12 inches of insulation up there but still attach the roofing properly.
But for this I think the important point is that the PEX would be nestled in mineral wool, with just the top part exposed to the metal.
How snugly nestled the PEX would be I don't know. I found a company called InRoof who is doing something that looks exactly like what I am proposing and will call them shortly and report back. I'll do them in a separate post so this doesn't get too long. 👍️You know I didn't look into soft aluminum tubing—I didn't know that was a thing! Thank you. I did look at the rigid aluminum tubing but the connection points all seemed kind of crazy expensive, and I would have needed one for each 90 degree turn. Soft aluminum tubing is very interesting…. I suppose my only concern there would be if roof movement (from expansion and contraction) would result in rubbing that would lower the life of the roof? Though if I'm right and InRoof tubes also don't touch the metal roof then maybe this is a moot point and solar gain would be good enough without that.
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So as I just mentioned I found a company called InRoof doing exactly what I'm proposing here—putting PEX under a metal roof, snugged in place with mineral wool to the sides and below it. They have had the IGG-SRCC rating done (found here via the link; search "IGG-SRCC").
One big question if have is whether their PEX was actually being squished under the metal or if there's a bit of room for it to move and they are mostly depending on heated air in the small space around the PEX to heat the water. Maybe we can tell from the IGG-SRCC rating? If I am reading this right then it looks to be less efficient than unglazed panels usually are when delta T is 5 degrees C but if the price is right…
Anyhow so I want to learn more about what they're doing; if their price is low enough then this could make financial sense in a new build, especially somewhere like Arizona (provided it isn't the parts of Arizona that get so hot that the PEX might melt). The main reason I'm looking at this vs other solar options is price per unit of heating, plus the help with cooling that unglazed panels can provide on summer nights, and I'm hoping the price will be right here….
If folks know of, or have thoughts about InRoof I'd be quite curious to hear. I do wonder exactly how well their panels work in the North East USA where they are based. One would imagine the uses for unglazed panels up there would be limited, but I think they're proposing using a heat pump to keep the fluid going to the panels cool enough so that they can operate efficiently. How much energy the heat pump would use I'm not sure, but I imagine having to cool down fluid to the normal outside temperature takes less energy than cooling fluid down to below the outside temperature so it can absorb heat from the air….
If folks have more info on a system like this (is there an Idronics on it?) I'd love to read up.
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—deleted, actual comment is below—
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Thanks Jamie
I played around with BEOpt trying out what seemed like passive solar designs vs non-passive designs (at least, I added um… I'd have to look it up but what I thought were the right kind of windows to as much of the south face as I could and also had an overhang…which maybe wasn't enough…) but at least on BEOpt the gains from passive solar were not very impressive. BEOpt also doesn't have an option for thermal drapes, though, which seems important if I was going to have massive windows. Is there some good (hopefully free) software I can use to simulate a passive solar build?
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Thanks DCContrarian
I agree with all of this, and these are definitely concerns I have. Plus, as there is a bit of a cooling season where I am (it's enough of an edge case that a home with a lot of thermal mass might squeak by with interior temperatures in the low 80's on the hottest days? I'm guessing?). But it does seem prudent to design for some cooling.
And yes, I've always thought that the issue with passive homes would be how to control the heat you get. In the summer you can vent some of it out the top, of course. And in the winter people talk about how it takes an hour for heat to move through an inch of concrete, so therefore an eight inch wall will release heat over the course of a night. But what happens when you have a storm that lasts several days? Plus, the more windows you have, the more heat will leave at night (though I know good curtains can reduce that something like five-fold).
Plus the really good windows are expensive, and lose their insulative value anyhow over 20 years or so, and I don't love the idea of buying really expensive windows every 20 years when it seems like it would be cheaper to just add a few solar panels of some kind. (And this solar roof idea seems cheaper than that).
I do like windows though! And certainly it seems smart to design what windows I will have for optimal solar gain in the winter and for minimal solar gain in the summer.
But yes, I guess I always liked the idea of being able to store heat or cool in a heat/cool bank, and I think I have a good plan for doing that semi-economically by putting a waffle slab on top of a healthy layer of glavel, insulating the sides and top of it, and putting a lot of PEX and gravel in the voids.
*I know some past attempts at slab-based heat banks essentially just used the slab as a heat bank without bothering to thermally separate it from the rest of the house. That is not what I'm proposing. This waffle-slab heat/cool bank would be thermally separated from the home by having insulation on top of it, and then the concrete radiant floor on top of that insulation. Otherwise, as I understand it, you're just turning the temperature of your home into a supertanker that, yes can carry a lot of heat or cool but also takes forever to correct course, and will only ever be comfortable if you're able to vent excess heat or cold out of windows.But maybe I've missed something, and Jamie or someone else will make Passive Solar seem more practical in my mind. I'm definitely open to learning more. But right now this is why I'm focused on some kind of "active" system.
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I've tried them in the past for questions on moisture management and found them lacking, but that may just be because that priority hasn't really seeped into the natural building world yet, and they would be fine on this kind of thing. I may give them a go, though also my impression from the year that I had signed up with them was that most of the informed commentary came from Martin Holladay, and when he retired and sold the site the quality of commentary went down and the price of admission went up to $150 per year…
But honestly I really appreciate the expertise here on all of the nuts and bolts kind of issues that will show up with any solar thermal system :)
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Interesting, did you just have your home set up so that even on cloudy days you got enough energy to keep everything warm? How on earth did you do that? (Since every time I try out the math on that, it doesn't seem to pan out.). Was this the house that had a solar attic? Even then I guess I'm surprised that it would collect enough heat on a cloudy day to work, that is cool to hear.
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Ah right, as DC Contrarian mentioned, condensation would be an issue…. Plus I wanted to go for an unvented roof if I can (I need to double check I can manage that and no get…I think ice dams are the issue?…) because of wildfire safety.
I have also wondered about pumping cooler water through the system and dumping the heat outside, though that would require added expense and I am trying to keep expenses down…. I did wonder about putting some pex under the foundation (as in under the glavel, which is insulating foamed glass) as a cheap ground source. The minus there being that some of that heat or cool will make its way to the heat bank through the insulation, and that the footprint of the house isn't the size of a proper geothermal loop. But if I'm mostly just trying to keep the pex in the roof from overheating, maybe it would be enough since it wouldn't have to be perfect, just good enough to lower the temp by 10 or 20 F to make a difference.
Or are there sort of… outside radiators meant to help dump heat or cold into outside air?
But also, as I think I mentioned before, at least in my climate I think Type 5 PEX meant for high heat radiators would be sufficiently heat-resistant even without an active system to cool the PEX on the hottest days. Which would make me feel a bit better, as I don't want to be one pump failure from catastrophe.0 -
That does sound more reliable, thanks 👍️
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I regret that I don't know of any software — free or otherwise! — which is particularly intended for analysing passive solar designs. We did have software which we used when we were playing with — decades ago! — but it was hardly stuff which was generally available! (machine coded to run on 8086/8087 microcomputers! We ran it on may AT&T computer and on Bill's Rainbow… those were the days…)(those were also the days when I was using a Commodore 64 and a telephone dial-up modem in a chain to run a CDC 6600 which in turn controlled a couple of Cray supercomputers… ).
Do look at the agricultural field in general. Farmers have been working with passive solar for decades… indeed centuries — and there is a lot of knowledge and hardware (and I think some software, though I'm out of that field now) out there which is generally ignored by everyone else.
Br. Jamie, osb
Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England0 -
Active window coverings would be high on my list for a passive home. Both to control the solar gain, but also to help keep the heat, or cool in after the sun sets.
@Larry Weingarten used greenhouse window actuators to control his passive hydronic system. A simple elegant, inexpensive solution.
I think you are coving ground, asking questions that many of us older solar dogs have been for 30 years or more. How to harness and control solar radiation, bend it to our will.
Viessmann introduced a coating recently for their thermal panels that lessens the energy striking the absorber based on temperature. A simple non electric solution to minimize over-heating.
Bob "hot rod" Rohr
trainer for Caleffi NA
Living the hydronic dream1
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